Non-Christian Sources for the Life of Jesus
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21-06-2011, 06:43 PM
Non-Christian Sources for the Life of Jesus
This thread was started when our beloved friend Parture asserted that there are 17 non-Christian Sources for the life of Christ as taught by Habermas in his book The Case for the Resurrection of Christ. (2004)

Since I cannot get a direct copy of the book I will be critical of Rev. Habermas’ essay in the book The Historical Jesus- Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ specifically chapter IX called “Ancient Non-Christian Sources."

The first Source that Habermas attempts to use is the famous passage from Tacitus. This passage states that there is a group of people who were incited by a “Chrestus” to do evil and that this Chrestus suffered and died at the hands of Tiberius Caesar.

There are so many things wrong with The Annals that it could be an essay all its own.
But with Tacitus, the same thing occurs nearly word for word in the writings of the Sulpicius Severus, a fifth Century Fantasy writer.

Pliny

A much more reliable source is Pliny the younger.

Pliny wrote his histories but never made mention to Christians only to “A dangerous and wild Judean Sect causing trouble in Rome.” The only time he says Christians is in Letters 96 and 97. But there is an issue with this. Letter 96 and 97 were published posthumously and anonymously. There is no evidence that Pliny wrote these Christian Letters at all.

The Talmud

The Talmud makes a reference to a Yeshu that was killed and there is a messianic sect behind him. Of course the issue is that the Talmud didn’t appear till over 300 years after the gospels were written. They, like so many of these sources are after the fact by a large margin.

Lucian

Lucian was making fun of Christians and wrote years after the fact.

No one is denying that Christianity existed early on and that Christians had some recognizable Christian Beliefs. All of these non-Christian Sources however do not support the resurrection appearances. They are not eyewitnesses and they were either forgeries or very long after the fact. None of the sources he cites including Africanus, Suetonius, Mara Ben Sopian and others are eye-witnesses of the Resurrected Christ and all are written long after the fact.

None of these sources are evidence for the historical Jesus.

"Do what though wilt shall be the whole of the Law." - The Book of the Law
"There is no God but man" - Liber OZ

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21-06-2011, 07:12 PM
RE: Non-Christian Sources for the Life of Jesus
Duh Robertus, the argument for this is so simple.

JESUS WAS THE FIRST DOCUMENTED RESURRECTION AND WAS OBSERVED BY 12 GROUPS IN DIFFERENT SETTIN....[ERROR]: RESPONSE PROGRAM CRASHING DUE TO REDUNDANCY AND TENUOUS GRASP ON REALITY.

DIVIDE BY ZERO.

REBOOT;

RELOADING PARROTING LINES
COMMAND EXECUTE; COMPLETE LACK OF WILLINGNESS TO LISTEN
MATURITY LEVEL SET TO: 0
INPUT CONSIDERATION: NONE
RUNNING PROGRAM: GOD IS REAL BECAUSE THAT'S THE RELIGION I'VE CHOSEN TO BELIEVE IN
INPUT [QUESTION]; GENERIC OUTPUT ON STANDBY REGARDLESS OF [QUESTION]

I'm sorry, what was your [question] again?

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

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21-06-2011, 07:18 PM
RE: Non-Christian Sources for the Life of Jesus
Not really relevant but Pliny the Young and Pliny the Elder are also the names of two fantastic beers by Russian River Brewery out of Sonoma County, California. You drink a couple of Pliny the Elder's and you'll see the resurrection too.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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21-06-2011, 07:32 PM
RE: Non-Christian Sources for the Life of Jesus
But seriously Roberto the Robust, I just took 2 history classes about all this stuff and every time you mention the Plinys and the Tacitus' of the world, I feel guilty for having such a terrible memory. I liked my history prof because he approached the origin and history of Christianity like every other topic. "Rulers used it because it was good for controlling masses" and "it grew popular in this society because they imposed a tax on you if you believed in other gods, it was their way of presenting a fake 'religious tolerance' while still promoting their own religion" were a couple of quotes from him I remember. He didn't tap dance around, trying not to hurt anyone's feelings, he was just so passionate about history that he didn't care about making up a more comfortable explanation.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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22-06-2011, 02:21 AM
RE: Non-Christian Sources for the Life of Jesus
Buddy; the world needs a whole lot more history teachers like the one you had. My favourite history teacher from high school told us he believed Christ existed- as a man- but not that he was the son of God. Considering this was 30 years ago (and the teacher wasn't Jewish or Muslim) that was a bold statement for anyone to make in front of a group of kids who were likely to go home and repeat it to their Christian parents. By that time I had already rejected religion as a bunch of bullshit, but I admired him for being honest with us rather than playing it safe and ducking the question.

The way to see by Faith, is to shut the eye of Reason. - Ben Franklin
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22-06-2011, 03:00 AM
RE: Non-Christian Sources for the Life of Jesus
Well done Robertus. Thanks for sharing this with us.

I think Parture's way of answering all the arguments presented by all the crew could be like this Tongue:

Accessing brain please wait....
...
loading...
...
...
There is a new version of brain, would you like to download the latest brain version?
Common sense 1.0 [ ]yes [+]no
...
...
buffering...
...
...
Brain has encountered an error please try again later...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed, the force is strong with you Rob. Well done sir.

Peace

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”
-Georgia Harkness.

"La fe es patrimonio de los pendejos. (Faith is patrimony of the dumbfucks)."
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22-06-2011, 08:08 AM
RE: Non-Christian Sources for the Life of Jesus
Thanks guys I tried Tongue

My area of specialization is ancient near eastern history not Greco-roman History so you should really look this stuff up yourself and make sure I haven't screwed up. Angel

"Do what though wilt shall be the whole of the Law." - The Book of the Law
"There is no God but man" - Liber OZ

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22-06-2011, 09:39 AM
RE: Non-Christian Sources for the Life of Jesus
I've read quite a bit on Josephus, if any of you would like a detailed breakdown of the Testimonium Flaevium here is a good site:
Non-christian proof of Jesus? - From the authentic pen of lying Christian scribes!

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

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22-06-2011, 01:05 PM
RE: Non-Christian Sources for the Life of Jesus
(22-06-2011 09:39 AM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  I've read quite a bit on Josephus, if any of you would like a detailed breakdown of the Testimonium Flaevium here is a good site:
Non-christian proof of Jesus? - From the authentic pen of lying Christian scribes!

Oh Josephus, the most common name ever cited in discussion for Jesus. Too bad this great historian, as racist and gullible as he was, is made too look stupid with forgeries attached to him.

"Do what though wilt shall be the whole of the Law." - The Book of the Law
"There is no God but man" - Liber OZ

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