Non-human persons
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06-07-2014, 06:48 AM
Non-human persons
http://ens-newswire.com/2013/05/20/india...cceptable/


Quote:India’s Ministry of Environment and Forests has decided to forbid the keeping of captive dolphins for public entertainment anywhere in the country..... “Whereas cetaceans in general are highly intelligent and sensitive, and various scientists who have researched dolphin behavior have suggested that the unusually high intelligence; as compared to other animals means that dolphin should be seen as ‘non-human persons’ and as such should have their own specific rights and is morally unacceptable to keep them captive for entertainment purpose,” the ministry said.

Hmmm, certainly my German Shepherd is a non-human person too... or where is the limit here?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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06-07-2014, 07:23 AM
RE: Non-human persons
(06-07-2014 06:48 AM)Dom Wrote:  http://ens-newswire.com/2013/05/20/india...cceptable/


Quote:India’s Ministry of Environment and Forests has decided to forbid the keeping of captive dolphins for public entertainment anywhere in the country..... “Whereas cetaceans in general are highly intelligent and sensitive, and various scientists who have researched dolphin behavior have suggested that the unusually high intelligence; as compared to other animals means that dolphin should be seen as ‘non-human persons’ and as such should have their own specific rights and is morally unacceptable to keep them captive for entertainment purpose,” the ministry said.

Hmmm, certainly my German Shepherd is a non-human person too... or where is the limit here?

I suppose a good place to start would be if they could define "unusually high intelligence". Animal I.Q. testing maybe? How would we know if we happened to test one of the "unusually intelligent" or "unusually dumb" members of each species?
This could take a while. Big Grin
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06-07-2014, 08:22 AM
RE: Non-human persons
(06-07-2014 07:23 AM)pablo628 Wrote:  
(06-07-2014 06:48 AM)Dom Wrote:  http://ens-newswire.com/2013/05/20/india...cceptable/



Hmmm, certainly my German Shepherd is a non-human person too... or where is the limit here?

I suppose a good place to start would be if they could define "unusually high intelligence". Animal I.Q. testing maybe? How would we know if we happened to test one of the "unusually intelligent" or "unusually dumb" members of each species?
This could take a while. Big Grin

Yabbut - is intelligence as we define it even the measure that should be used for this? How about using something more measurable and physical, such as brain activities?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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06-07-2014, 08:40 AM
RE: Non-human persons
(06-07-2014 08:22 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(06-07-2014 07:23 AM)pablo628 Wrote:  I suppose a good place to start would be if they could define "unusually high intelligence". Animal I.Q. testing maybe? How would we know if we happened to test one of the "unusually intelligent" or "unusually dumb" members of each species?
This could take a while. Big Grin

Yabbut - is intelligence as we define it even the measure that should be used for this? How about using something more measurable and physical, such as brain activities?

Activities in which parts of the brain? If their intelligence is different than ours, perhaps their brains work differently too. Such as the way Dolphins use echo-location to catch fish, we have no firsthand knowledge of this ability so we could only measure by comparison to ourselves.
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06-07-2014, 08:48 AM
RE: Non-human persons
(06-07-2014 08:40 AM)pablo628 Wrote:  
(06-07-2014 08:22 AM)Dom Wrote:  Yabbut - is intelligence as we define it even the measure that should be used for this? How about using something more measurable and physical, such as brain activities?

Activities in which parts of the brain? If their intelligence is different than ours, perhaps their brains work differently too. Such as the way Dolphins use echo-location to catch fish, we have no firsthand knowledge of this ability so we could only measure by comparison to ourselves.

True. Because we really can only measure what we know. And we don't know shit about animals, we hardly know a lot about ourselves as yet.

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06-07-2014, 10:07 AM
RE: Non-human persons
(06-07-2014 08:40 AM)pablo628 Wrote:  
(06-07-2014 08:22 AM)Dom Wrote:  Yabbut - is intelligence as we define it even the measure that should be used for this? How about using something more measurable and physical, such as brain activities?

Activities in which parts of the brain? If their intelligence is different than ours, perhaps their brains work differently too. Such as the way Dolphins use echo-location to catch fish, we have no firsthand knowledge of this ability so we could only measure by comparison to ourselves.



There has been research on this:

Quote:Brain structure[edit]

Elephant brains also show a similar complexity to dolphin brains, and are also more convoluted than that of humans,[20] and with a cortex "thicker than that of cetaceans".[21] However, in dolphins, "no patterns of cellular distribution, nuclear subdivision, or cellular morphology indicate specialization of the LC (coeruleus complex)" despite the large absolute brain size and unihemispheric sleep phenomenology of cetaceans.[22] Moreover, it is generally agreed that the growth of the neocortex, both absolutely and relative to the rest of the brain, during human evolution, has been responsible for the evolution of intelligence, however defined. While a complex neocortex usually indicates high intelligence, there are exceptions to this. For example, the echidna has a highly developed brain, yet is not widely considered to be very intelligent.[23]

Although many cetaceans have a great number of cortical neurons, after Homo sapiens, the species with the greatest number of cortical neurons and synapses is the elephant.[21](p73) All sleeping mammals, including dolphins, experience a stage known as REM sleep.[24] Unlike terrestrial mammals, dolphin brains contain a paralimbic lobe, which may possibly be used for sensory processing. The dolphin is a voluntary breather, even during sleep, with the result that veterinary anaesthesia of dolphins is impossible, as it would result in asphyxiation.[citation needed] Ridgway reports that EEGs show alternating hemispheric asymmetry in slow waves during sleep, with occasional sleep-like waves from both hemispheres.[citation needed] This result has been interpreted to mean that dolphins sleep only one hemisphere of their brain at a time, possibly to control their voluntary respiration system or to be vigilant for predators. This is also given as explanation for the large size of their brains.[citation needed]

Dolphin brain stem transmission time is faster than that normally found in humans, and is approximately equivalent to the speed found in rats.[citation needed] As echo-location is the dolphin's primary means of sensing its environment – analogous to eyes in primates – and since sound travels four and a half times faster in water than in air, scientists[who?] speculate that the faster brain stem transmission time, and perhaps the paralimbic lobe as well, assist quicker processing of sound. (Though, if this is the case, it still does not explain the cause of the faster transmission time in the brain stem.)The dolphin's greater dependence on sound processing is evident in the structure of its brain: its neural area devoted to visual imaging is only about one-tenth that of the human brain, while the area devoted to acoustical imaging is about 10 times[citation needed] that of the human brain. (This is unsurprising: primate brains devote much more volume to visual processing than those of almost any other animal, and human brains more than other primates.) Sensory experiments suggest a great degree of cross-modal integration in the processing of shapes between echolocative and visual areas of the brain. Unlike the case of the human brain, the cetacean optic chiasm is completely crossed,[citation needed] and there is behavioral evidence for hemispheric dominance for vision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cetacean_intelligence

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06-07-2014, 10:26 AM
RE: Non-human persons
I'm all for animal rights. Anything alive deserves humane conditions. From farm animals to wildlife and everything in-between.
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06-07-2014, 11:12 AM
RE: Non-human persons
Yay! India.

I like that precedent.

Anything that detracts from the theistic moral argument is OK by me.

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06-07-2014, 12:20 PM
RE: Non-human persons
http://www.animal-rights-library.com/tex...dall01.htm
I too live with a small person in a furry coat. Frickin' surfing dog.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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06-07-2014, 10:24 PM
RE: Non-human persons
Dolphins are wild animals where as dogs, as in pet dogs, have been bred to be "pets".
I think there's a difference between a dolphin who hasn't had the evolutionary chance to adapt to captivity, and a pet dog.

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