North Carolina, ban on gay marriage.
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13-05-2012, 04:37 AM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2012 04:50 AM by Logisch.)
RE: North Carolina, ban on gay marriage.
I was caught off guard by my sister finding out she is opposed to gay marriage. When I asked her why... I got basically... "Bible says so, it's what I believe, you may not like it but that's how it is." when I asked her a good reason BESIDES THAT, to justify it and explain why... it was circular reasoning... "Because bible. Because bible."

The entire conversation I brought up multiple points:

- You can't say you're treating people fairly and the same as everyone else BUT... if there's a but there is an exception, that is NOT equal treatment.
- You can't say you're treating people equally and then tell them that they don't deserve the same benefits as you do with your husband.

She then proceeded to make an interesting comparison. "If I walked down the street and ran into a pedophile, you know, I mean I wouldn't agree with the choices they've met in their life but I'd probably say hi and treat them like anyone else and be on my way like nothing happened." I asked her how in the world she could compare a pedophile with a gay person and got that it is immoral because it is in the bible and marriage is between one man and one woman.

She also said: "Not everyone thinks about stuff like this and has to think of it in a logical sense like you do." WHAT? I don't understand... if something as important as a moral and ethical issue comes up why would you NOT think about it to the core when it affects the lives of others. How can you NOT rationalize and logically break things down when you are changing the rights and lives of other people that surround you. I sensed a cop out. Perhaps a justification to being ignorant of the subject. What do they call that, I think it's

I can't tell you how frustrating it was for me to hear this. I told her very clearly it isn't just a choice someone makes, people don't get up in the morning and put on gay shoes and go, "You know what? Today I think I'm gonna just go be gay." The best man at my wedding was gay (still is) and is one of the most ethical and amazing people I've ever been friends with and would trust him with my life. To hear my sister basically say fuck those guys, the bible says they suck made me so mad. The word bigot may have slipped out of my mouth and at that point she became defensive, put up the christian wall and the conversation progressed really nowhere thereafter...

From other members on The Thinking Atheist... how do you address a family member that is unwilling to directly answer difficult questions, justify their claims and even back them up?

She tried the whole "It's not natural" thing but I even told her it's observed in nature, therefore it's natural. Sure, not a common occurrence, but I asked her how that makes it immoral? Circular reasoning, back to the bible it went...

Round and round we go. I sometimes just want to give up on my family. Other times I feel like I know there's good in them and I hope she'll see the prejudice she's holding.

Pretend she were reading this: What would YOU say?
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13-05-2012, 06:13 AM
RE: North Carolina, ban on gay marriage.
(13-05-2012 04:37 AM)Logisch Wrote:  Pretend she were reading this: What would YOU say?


1. http://www.11points.com/books/11_things_the_bible_bans,_but_you_do_anyway

2. Ask her to let you come with her when she goes to buy her slaves, (bible says ok). http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080927061456AAqmlCp

3. Christians conveniently spout Old Testament (cultually depandant) shit when THEY find it convenient, but ignore ALL the rest of the "law" (OT) when they find it inconvenient ... saying (NT) "Jesus came to fulfill the law", and in fact Jesus NEVER SAID ANYTHING about homosexuality. And in fact Jesus said precisely the OPPOSITE, and they are BOUND by the ancient laws, if they REALLY are Christians : http://malaysia.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080609000855AAKlrCj

4. The human concept of "sexual orientation" arose in human history in the late 1800's. Therefore ANY human attitude on the subject must be a "modern" response to the fact that humans did not understand hormonal causes and responses until the scientific worldview had developed, LATE in human history. Does she use, agree with ANY other "devolopments", which human ideas have come to understand ? (Does she take pain pills, or drugs when she had her kids ? etc. etc.) They did not understand "sexual orientation". The concept NEVER ONCE crossed their minds. They knew nothing about it. It's a modern idea. Does she fly in airplanes ? It is unnatural.

5. Does she stone her kids when they are disobedient ? http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080110180705AAZ5kzj (bible says go right ahead)

6. http://www.smilepolitely.com/opinion/what_does_the_bible_really_say_about_homosexuality/

7. Was it ok for Lot, (Sodom and Gomorrah) to offer his daughters to the mob, in place of his guests ? http://ponderingscripture.wordpress.com/...daughters/

8. The biblical myth of Lot, (Sodom and Gommorah), has been removed from it's literary context when used to support the idea that "the bible says it's wrong". In fact the story in Genesis 19, follows upon the story in Genesis 18 of Abraham and his HOSPITALITY towards strangers, as an example of it's opposite, INHOSPITALITY. Hospitality, (or care and respect for wandering strangers, or those possibly lost in the Ancient desert environment, was a matter of life and death).

http://ponderingscripture.wordpress.com/2010/02/23/genesis-181-3-a-lesson-in-hospitality/http://www.gaychristian101.com/Inhospitality.html

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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13-05-2012, 06:24 AM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2012 07:05 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: North Carolina, ban on gay marriage.



Australia is having a senate enquiry on marriage equality at the moment. One submission was from a group of doctors[1] who claimed that it would be a health risk[2]. I was watching the news with a family member supportive of the submission. I asked how marriage equality would pose a health risk, and their answer was "AIDS". When questioned further on how homosexual monogamy would increase the spread of AIDS she quietened somewhat Smile

[1] http://www.doctors4family.com.au/
[2] http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Busi...ssions.htm, submission 229.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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13-05-2012, 06:44 PM
RE: North Carolina, ban on gay marriage.
(13-05-2012 06:24 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  


Australia is having a senate enquiry on marriage equality at the moment. One submission was from a group of doctors[1] who claimed that it would be a health risk[2]. I was watching the news with a family member supportive of the submission. I asked how marriage equality would pose a health risk, and their answer was "AIDS". When questioned further on how homosexual monogamy would increase the spread of AIDS she quietened somewhat Smile

[1] http://www.doctors4family.com.au/
[2] http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Busi...ssions.htm, submission 229.
They always play the AIDS card, mostly because it is the single only card they have.
You know, because only gays get AIDS...

Not to mention if you are married, like you say monogamy, you're with one person. You're not you're sleeping around (well more likely) and hence gay marriage if anything would slow the spread of AIDS.

How about we stop this bitch from getting married. "but why?", oh haven't you herd? health risk, STDs.

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13-05-2012, 09:35 PM
RE: North Carolina, ban on gay marriage.
(13-05-2012 06:13 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-05-2012 04:37 AM)Logisch Wrote:  Pretend she were reading this: What would YOU say?


1. http://www.11points.com/books/11_things_the_bible_bans,_but_you_do_anyway

2. Ask her to let you come with her when she goes to buy her slaves, (bible says ok). http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080927061456AAqmlCp

3. Christians conveniently spout Old Testament (cultually depandant) shit when THEY find it convenient, but ignore ALL the rest of the "law" (OT) when they find it inconvenient ... saying (NT) "Jesus came to fulfill the law", and in fact Jesus NEVER SAID ANYTHING about homosexuality. And in fact Jesus said precisely the OPPOSITE, and they are BOUND by the ancient laws, if they REALLY are Christians : http://malaysia.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080609000855AAKlrCj

4. The human concept of "sexual orientation" arose in human history in the late 1800's. Therefore ANY human attitude on the subject must be a "modern" response to the fact that humans did not understand hormonal causes and responses until the scientific worldview had developed, LATE in human history. Does she use, agree with ANY other "devolopments", which human ideas have come to understand ? (Does she take pain pills, or drugs when she had her kids ? etc. etc.) They did not understand "sexual orientation". The concept NEVER ONCE crossed their minds. They knew nothing about it. It's a modern idea. Does she fly in airplanes ? It is unnatural.

5. Does she stone her kids when they are disobedient ? http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080110180705AAZ5kzj (bible says go right ahead)

6. http://www.smilepolitely.com/opinion/what_does_the_bible_really_say_about_homosexuality/

7. Was it ok for Lot, (Sodom and Gomorrah) to offer his daughters to the mob, in place of his guests ? http://ponderingscripture.wordpress.com/...daughters/

8. The biblical myth of Lot, (Sodom and Gommorah), has been removed from it's literary context when used to support the idea that "the bible says it's wrong". In fact the story in Genesis 19, follows upon the story in Genesis 18 of Abraham and his HOSPITALITY towards strangers, as an example of it's opposite, INHOSPITALITY. Hospitality, (or care and respect for wandering strangers, or those possibly lost in the Ancient desert environment, was a matter of life and death).

http://ponderingscripture.wordpress.com/2010/02/23/genesis-181-3-a-lesson-in-hospitality/http://www.gaychristian101.com/Inhospitality.html
Is the issue all about the old and new testaments?

From an evolutionary point of view I would hazard a guess that heterosexuality was the preferred option

Here in Melbourne there were pro gay marriage marches a few days ago, demanding such, and opposing the attitude of our P.M.who opposes it. I personally am not convinced that all gays have been genetically determined that way and base this on the fact that till my late twenties I was bi-sexual, by choice, in my view. What of bi-sexual marriage, involving four; will this eventually become the norm?

I sympathize with predominantly gay people who want a marriage but the whole issue is not as clear cut as many would have it.As for child rearing the situation becomes very complicated. Sure many same sex couples would make much better parents than many heterosexuals, but the irresponsible gays will also want kids via surrogate mothers,donor sperm etc... so poor parenting will persist.

I heard on the news last night that Mitt Romney opposes gay marriage, but not same sex adoptions.
I found that very hard to understand.
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13-05-2012, 09:51 PM
RE: North Carolina, ban on gay marriage.
Bring back the Ruddster!

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13-05-2012, 10:13 PM (This post was last modified: 13-05-2012 10:17 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: North Carolina, ban on gay marriage.
(13-05-2012 09:35 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Is the issue all about the old and new testaments?

No it isn't. You asked what to say to your sister. I was simply pointing out that those who justify their position based on the bible don't know what they're talking about, and/or are wildly inconsistent.

I really don't know what the evolutionary advantage of same sex attraction is, (although I DO know that the generally accepted "black and white" simplistic notions are false). As you imply, on a scale of 1-10, most people are neither a 1 nor a 10, and many, while acknowleging some attractions, choose not to act on them. The fact that you are bisexual, and could make a choice is irrelevant. Ask any straight person, at what age they chose to be straight. Gay people choose to be monogomaous, in whatever percentage they do that, just like straight people. The divisions are artificial. There must be some evolutionary advantage, as it keeps recurring in about the same percentages. Human sexual behaviors exist across a vast range of behaviors. Bonobo apes use sex for "peacemaking/peacekeeping" (some same sex behaviors), as well as reproduction .. I just never thought about the question. I also know that the usual Natural Law objection to the behavior is patently, observationaly false. The behaviors exist in every species on the planet. The reason conservative religion opposes this so vehemently is that it threatens the philosophical foundations of their Systematic and Moral theologies, (Aristotelian/Aquinas/Natural Law), (choice, and the false definition of "natural").

It doesn't really matter whether the cause is genetics, or a hormone surge, (or decrease), "in utero", as some now think, humans have the right to have whatever family they choose, as long as the evidence shows no harm to the kids . The French model of civil unions, (I think) is pretty enlightened. I seriously doubt you have any evidence that "irresponsible gays" want anything, especially children via surrogacy, or that it's any different from any other group. (Care to cite a study ?) And BTW, Mitt Romney takes his position "du jour", based on what the polls tell him to say this week.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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14-05-2012, 09:47 AM
RE: North Carolina, ban on gay marriage.
(13-05-2012 06:13 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-05-2012 04:37 AM)Logisch Wrote:  Pretend she were reading this: What would YOU say?


1. http://www.11points.com/books/11_things_the_bible_bans,_but_you_do_anyway

2. Ask her to let you come with her when she goes to buy her slaves, (bible says ok). http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080927061456AAqmlCp

3. Christians conveniently spout Old Testament (cultually depandant) shit when THEY find it convenient, but ignore ALL the rest of the "law" (OT) when they find it inconvenient ... saying (NT) "Jesus came to fulfill the law", and in fact Jesus NEVER SAID ANYTHING about homosexuality. And in fact Jesus said precisely the OPPOSITE, and they are BOUND by the ancient laws, if they REALLY are Christians : http://malaysia.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080609000855AAKlrCj

4. The human concept of "sexual orientation" arose in human history in the late 1800's. Therefore ANY human attitude on the subject must be a "modern" response to the fact that humans did not understand hormonal causes and responses until the scientific worldview had developed, LATE in human history. Does she use, agree with ANY other "devolopments", which human ideas have come to understand ? (Does she take pain pills, or drugs when she had her kids ? etc. etc.) They did not understand "sexual orientation". The concept NEVER ONCE crossed their minds. They knew nothing about it. It's a modern idea. Does she fly in airplanes ? It is unnatural.

5. Does she stone her kids when they are disobedient ? http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080110180705AAZ5kzj (bible says go right ahead)

6. http://www.smilepolitely.com/opinion/what_does_the_bible_really_say_about_homosexuality/

7. Was it ok for Lot, (Sodom and Gomorrah) to offer his daughters to the mob, in place of his guests ? http://ponderingscripture.wordpress.com/...daughters/

8. The biblical myth of Lot, (Sodom and Gommorah), has been removed from it's literary context when used to support the idea that "the bible says it's wrong". In fact the story in Genesis 19, follows upon the story in Genesis 18 of Abraham and his HOSPITALITY towards strangers, as an example of it's opposite, INHOSPITALITY. Hospitality, (or care and respect for wandering strangers, or those possibly lost in the Ancient desert environment, was a matter of life and death).

http://ponderingscripture.wordpress.com/2010/02/23/genesis-181-3-a-lesson-in-hospitality/http://www.gaychristian101.com/Inhospitality.html
I've actually brought a lot of these up with her in that conversation. I mentioned it condones slavery (she never said anything back, just went to her next thing) and I mentioned if that's the case she shouldn't have shellfish along with many other things, etc etc....

I don't think it's that she doesn't realize it condones those things but rather she thinks that the things she is "making a stand for" are "right"... are there any rational ways to show her the harm of her views? Consider She doesn't seem to listen to the voice of reason much.

She is a YEC as well as thinks evolution is a lie... so that doesn't help the matter. She pretty much believes whatever people spoonfeed her and then says she's non-denominational and a "real christian" (apparently it's all the others that aren't real, right? like we never hear that)...
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14-05-2012, 11:36 AM (This post was last modified: 14-05-2012 11:39 AM by kim.)
RE: North Carolina, ban on gay marriage.
(13-05-2012 04:37 AM)Logisch Wrote:  I was caught off guard by my sister ...
...
She also said: "Not everyone thinks about stuff like this and has to think of it in a logical sense like you do."

She's right on that point; children don't think about stuff in a logical sense... until they learn to think. Anyone who allows someone or something else to think for them, automatically considers themselves not responsible for consequences which may result.

Many religious people say about it themselves; they are God's children. Emphasis on children. I don't mind anyone believing in a God of some sort, if it makes them feel more secure. But will their God take responsibility for the consequences of their actions? I'm sure they have faith in the forgiveness of those consequences. Why grow up when that safety net is always there?

Many people refuse to grow up; as adults they just play at government the same way a child will "play house" with no regard to consequence. "I am not responsible"; I'm very sure I've heard that before from adults.

I feel horrible knowing some people will never grow beyond a certain point, and I usually don't care. But this reliance on a singular set of rules is not only preposterous but damaging to others. No one's inability to think for themselves, should destroy another person's opportunity for equality. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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14-05-2012, 03:30 PM
RE: North Carolina, ban on gay marriage.
(11-05-2012 03:21 PM)Diablo Wrote:  There is too much talk about this whole gay issue going on. The more often people hear stuff, the more they think about it, and the more they believe it.

Now every other kid you talk to thinks they might be gay.
Its getting out of hand.

Are you serious with this? Do you think if everyone just shuts up about homosexuality it will go away or something?

Huh
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