North Korea fires intermediate range ballistic missile
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
13-02-2017, 03:28 PM
RE: North Korea fires intermediate range ballistic missile
(13-02-2017 11:51 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(12-02-2017 11:04 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Excellent points. But it's still CALLED communism. This would be an interesting retort to the next fundy who comes in here to tell us that atheism = communism = atheism.

A habit developed during the cold war where every ally of the USSR was referred to as communist, even when most were really just regular dictatorships with no particular policy besides staying in power by all means. Totalitarianism was equated with communism.

There was particular policy in at least some of Soviet bloc countries - nationalization or collectivization of agriculture. There is also matter of ideology underpinning system - countries under Soviet regime weren't run of the mill dictatorships, they were created in the image and likeness of USSR. Some countries had greater leeway - Poland since 1956 began journey from totalitarianism to plain, old authoritarianism.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2017, 03:35 PM
RE: North Korea fires intermediate range ballistic missile
(13-02-2017 03:28 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(13-02-2017 11:51 AM)tomilay Wrote:  A habit developed during the cold war where every ally of the USSR was referred to as communist, even when most were really just regular dictatorships with no particular policy besides staying in power by all means. Totalitarianism was equated with communism.

There was particular policy in at least some of Soviet bloc countries - nationalization or collectivization of agriculture. There is also matter of ideology underpinning system - countries under Soviet regime weren't run of the mill dictatorships, they were created in the image and likeness of USSR. Some countries had greater leeway - Poland since 1956 began journey from totalitarianism to plain, old authoritarianism.

Just curious, was it possible to own your own stuff? A house? Maybe even a grocery store?

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2017, 03:42 PM
RE: North Korea fires intermediate range ballistic missile
(13-02-2017 03:35 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Just curious, was it possible to own your own stuff? A house? Maybe even a grocery store?

Since my family originally came from Hungary, and we frequently visited there, it was possible in some countries. Hungary was more lenient than others. You could in fact run your own small business there. In other countries, far as I know, it was impossible. The GDR cracked down on all private business in 1972 when Honecker came to power.

Owning a house was possible everywhere.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes abaris's post
13-02-2017, 03:48 PM
RE: North Korea fires intermediate range ballistic missile
(13-02-2017 03:35 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(13-02-2017 03:28 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  There was particular policy in at least some of Soviet bloc countries - nationalization or collectivization of agriculture. There is also matter of ideology underpinning system - countries under Soviet regime weren't run of the mill dictatorships, they were created in the image and likeness of USSR. Some countries had greater leeway - Poland since 1956 began journey from totalitarianism to plain, old authoritarianism.

Just curious, was it possible to own your own stuff? A house? Maybe even a grocery store?

Never looked for such info. In Poland you could own a house if my quick search yielded correct results. And if I'm not mistaken one could have a small shop.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Szuchow's post
13-02-2017, 03:59 PM
RE: North Korea fires intermediate range ballistic missile
(12-02-2017 03:27 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(12-02-2017 03:20 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Right! What's the fucking point?? Can't we just shoot this shit down if we really need too? I'm sure we have jets or anti-whatever guns on standby 24/7. I bet North Korea don't. Do they even consider the possibility that if they detonate a nuke in South Korea or the US that the US would simply just nuke them back?

They've fucking lost the war. They're so far technologically backwards and resource-starved that they don't stand a chance.

The point isn't to win a war with the outside world, the point is to put on a saber rattling show for the domestic front. It's something they, on some ideological level, have to do in order to maintain the country's (and the leadership in power) cult of personality and it's cultural narrative. They see themselves as the glorious inheritors, the true descendants, of some mythical Asian legacy (see also: Nazism and the myth of Aryans); and the whole world is both in awe of and rallied against them. They need a nuclear program, if only to help them buy into both their manufactured persecution and superiority complexes. It is a propaganda play first and foremost.

It is also their insurance policy against externally-imposed overthrow.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2017, 05:26 PM
RE: North Korea fires intermediate range ballistic missile
(13-02-2017 01:20 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(13-02-2017 01:07 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Iraq was the recipient of plenty of aid and weaponry while operating as a NATO proxy in the Cold War, before they became a profitable scapegoat for the American military-industrial complex.

It was rather propped up against Iran.

But I grew up with this Orwellian shit. Back then when the Mujaheddins were the galant freedom fighters against the Reds in Afghanistan or Iraq was supported against Iran, complete with Donny Rumsfeld shaking hands with the big bad Saddam, who at the same time was busy gassing the Kurds. Which, of course, bothered noone at the time. Apart from a few journalistic trouble makers.

I also observed the outrage over the Soviets downing the Korean plane and the "oopsy" like sentiment when an American vessel did the same to an Iranian jet.

Yeah, I've seen enough of Orwell's "we've always been at war with Oceania".

It was propped up against Iran, yes, but only after Iran fell to the religious crazies because we had manipulated Iran by deposing its ruler and putting a totalitarian (pro-US) regime in place. Iran was in very real danger, prior to the revolution, of going pro-Soviet, with an Iranian Communist movement and everything (mainly in the north, where the Soviets had occupied half of Iran during WW2, the Brits holding the other half).

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-02-2017, 05:33 PM
RE: North Korea fires intermediate range ballistic missile
(13-02-2017 05:26 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Iran was in very real danger, prior to the revolution, of going pro-Soviet, with an Iranian Communist movement and everything (mainly in the north, where the Soviets had occupied half of Iran during WW2, the Brits holding the other half).

That's what they feared with Mossadegh, the reason why they installed the pompous fool who managed the country so poorly that the Islamist revolution even happened. Which wasn't an Islamist revolution from the start but students and ordinary citizens standing up against the law of injustice.

Truth is, Mossadegh was the only real elected leader of Iran. The oil companies couldn't have that. The Dulles brothers couldn't have that either.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes abaris's post
13-02-2017, 05:44 PM
RE: North Korea fires intermediate range ballistic missile
(13-02-2017 05:26 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(13-02-2017 01:20 PM)abaris Wrote:  It was rather propped up against Iran.

But I grew up with this Orwellian shit. Back then when the Mujaheddins were the galant freedom fighters against the Reds in Afghanistan or Iraq was supported against Iran, complete with Donny Rumsfeld shaking hands with the big bad Saddam, who at the same time was busy gassing the Kurds. Which, of course, bothered noone at the time. Apart from a few journalistic trouble makers.

I also observed the outrage over the Soviets downing the Korean plane and the "oopsy" like sentiment when an American vessel did the same to an Iranian jet.

Yeah, I've seen enough of Orwell's "we've always been at war with Oceania".

It was propped up against Iran, yes, but only after Iran fell to the religious crazies because we had manipulated Iran by deposing its ruler and putting a totalitarian (pro-US) regime in place. Iran was in very real danger, prior to the revolution, of going pro-Soviet, with an Iranian Communist movement and everything (mainly in the north, where the Soviets had occupied half of Iran during WW2, the Brits holding the other half).

I disagree about the danger of Iran going pro-Soviet. The Tudehs were potent, but still in the minority, and were only found useful by the mullahs in the mid-70s. The repression of the SAVAK had done deep structural damage to the leftist movement in Iran after we Americans had reinstalled the Shah in 1953, and supported his repression thereafter.

Sentiment in Iran was never, so far as I saw, in favor of of a command economy with a centralized decision-making process. The streets and bazaars were rife with carts and stands selling everything from individual condoms to Sony ghetto-blasters -- all businesses which would have suffered under the Tudehs.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Thumpalumpacus's post
13-02-2017, 10:12 PM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2017 10:21 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: North Korea fires intermediate range ballistic missile
(13-02-2017 05:44 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(13-02-2017 05:26 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It was propped up against Iran, yes, but only after Iran fell to the religious crazies because we had manipulated Iran by deposing its ruler and putting a totalitarian (pro-US) regime in place. Iran was in very real danger, prior to the revolution, of going pro-Soviet, with an Iranian Communist movement and everything (mainly in the north, where the Soviets had occupied half of Iran during WW2, the Brits holding the other half).

I disagree about the danger of Iran going pro-Soviet. The Tudehs were potent, but still in the minority, and were only found useful by the mullahs in the mid-70s. The repression of the SAVAK had done deep structural damage to the leftist movement in Iran after we Americans had reinstalled the Shah in 1953, and supported his repression thereafter.

Sentiment in Iran was never, so far as I saw, in favor of of a command economy with a centralized decision-making process. The streets and bazaars were rife with carts and stands selling everything from individual condoms to Sony ghetto-blasters -- all businesses which would have suffered under the Tudehs.

Quite so. By "very real danger", I meant without the US-backed interventions against it. Should have been more specific.

Had the geographically adjacent Soviets been more free to lean on the overall Iranian culture (with overt threat of what was happening in the Warsaw Pact nations the Sovs invaded/conquered, if they would not cooperate on their own) and not just the border territories, without the US intervention there, they quite possibly could have gone that route, bazaars not withstanding.

Unfortunately, the USA's "intervention" translated to a repressive dictatorship that favored US corporate/economic interests over those of the people... not that the Sovs would have been any better... and so what we got in '79 was a Theocracy and seething hatred of all things 'Murka that continues (partly) to this day.

Edit to Add: On second thought, I maybe am not giving the Iranians enough credit in their desire to resist the Soviets, given what the Afghanistan "freedom fighters" did against the might of the adjacent Soviet empire. Apples and oranges, of course, since Iran was an industrialized, oil-producing nation, but my point still remains that it required the SAVAK brutality to shut down the leftist movement... and that sort of brutality leads to counter-aggression, under enough pressure.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes RocketSurgeon76's post
13-02-2017, 10:31 PM
RE: North Korea fires intermediate range ballistic missile
Cone of Silence be damned. I'll talk national security in front of whoever I damn well please. My authority in such matters cannot be questioned.

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: