Nothing, doesn't exist
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06-03-2014, 10:08 PM
Nothing, doesn't exist
I could have posted this in the science section of the forum, but as theist love to argue with non-theist on a universe coming from nothing, I feel it fits here.

The question is, "what is nothing"? My feeling is that nothing doesn't exist...by definition. I've had this thought before every once in awhile through out my life, but it's come more to a point, or purpose, having read Lawrence Krauss' A Universe from Nothing. In it he argues that the dismissal by theist of a universe coming from nothing is a fault of theist misunderstanding of "nothing" from an archaic perceptive.

I read a lot of things theist say about this, and they basically see it as ridiculous to redefine nothing as a sort of...something. It's hard to not see their point, but I had thought about this a lot in life. What actually is nothing?

The second you define nothing, it becomes a thing. Even if there is nothing there...whatever that could mean...then one could still measure the nothingness there, the size and value, the weight, or lack of weight (that's still a measure) and if you can give any parameters to it...then it's a thing. In that sense, nothing would be a thing. So nothing, couldn't actually be nothing. So there seems there can't really be "nothing". Nothing can't be a thing, and remain nothing.

Krauss' point is that nothing is actually as something. But that's not really my point. The nothing of actual non-existence can't actually be a thing.

I could go on like this...but what are your thoughts? Just curious...

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06-03-2014, 10:24 PM
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist



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06-03-2014, 10:33 PM
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist
(06-03-2014 10:24 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  


See that's the point. There are two concepts of nothing. The "classical" concept of "nothing" which by definition cannot exist. And Krauss' point, (which he adds onto the first point) that nothing is actually teaming with somethingness.

Either way, either nothing is not a thing, or nothing is a thing and not really nothing in the "classical" sense of the usage of the term. So the "classical" understanding of "nothing" does not exist.

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06-03-2014, 10:50 PM
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist
Nothingness consists of no space, no time, no particles, no fields, no force, no laws of nature, no laws of physics, no logic, no mathematical entities, and no consciousness. Nothingness isn't anything. Nothingness is complete negation of existence.
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07-03-2014, 08:14 AM
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist
(06-03-2014 10:08 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  The second you define nothing, it becomes a thing.
Robby won't understand my point and will likely accuse me of focusing on inconsequential matters, but anyhow...

I think this is the key sentence of your post, and further, that "thing" is the key word in the sentence.

What are the attributes of a "thing"?

Also substitute other words for "nothing" and see if the principle holds.
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07-03-2014, 08:27 AM
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist
(07-03-2014 08:14 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 10:08 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  The second you define nothing, it becomes a thing.
Robby won't understand my point and will likely accuse me of focusing on inconsequential matters, but anyhow...

I think this is the key sentence of your post, and further, that "thing" is the key word in the sentence.

What are the attributes of a "thing"?

Also substitute other words for "nothing" and see if the principle holds.

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07-03-2014, 08:30 AM
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist
What I wonder is how a border between something and nothing looks like. Where can be nothing?
Because if there is nothing then it has to be somewhere.
Because nothing is not here. It has to be somewhere else.
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07-03-2014, 08:33 AM
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist
(06-03-2014 10:50 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Nothingness consists of no space, no time, no particles, no fields, no force, no laws of nature, no laws of physics, no logic, no mathematical entities, and no consciousness. Nothingness isn't anything. Nothingness is complete negation of existence.

Oh well then it doesn't exist because logic is true even if nothing exists.
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07-03-2014, 08:38 AM
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist
I can recommend this book.

Nothing: A Very Short Introduction
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07-03-2014, 09:11 AM
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist
There is no such thing as ... no such thing.

Undecided

Nothing is non existence. There is no such thing as non existence. Something always exists everywhere.

In other words, it is physically impossible for nothingness to exist, and be observed as existing since there would be nothing to observe.

How does one see something that does not exist? It is like god, and like god, nothingness does not exist.

Hence, the Big Bang did not come from nothing. It came from the existence of something ie; energy and matter.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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