Nothing, doesn't exist
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07-03-2014, 09:12 AM
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist
(07-03-2014 09:11 AM)Free Wrote:  There is no such thing as ... no such thing.

Undecided

Nothing is non existence. There is no such thing as non existence. Something always exists everywhere.

In other words, it is physically impossible for nothingness to exist, and be observed as existing since there would be nothing to observe.

How does one see something that does not exist? It is like god, and like god, nothingness does not exist.

How do you prove that nothing does not exist?
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07-03-2014, 09:26 AM
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist
(06-03-2014 10:50 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Nothingness consists of no space, no time, no particles, no fields, no force, no laws of nature, no laws of physics, no logic, no mathematical entities, and no consciousness. Nothingness isn't anything. Nothingness is complete negation of existence.
Sounds like the definition I've heard for your god....
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07-03-2014, 09:32 AM
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist
I've said it before and I'll say it again: There was never a time when there was "nothing" (in the archaic, philosophical sense of the word). The whole concept of the universe (and all that is in it) arising ex-nihilo is a red herring: Theists demand that science provide an explanation for how a universe can come from "nothing" without ever being required to demonstrate that "nothing" was ever a state of the universe to begin with.
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07-03-2014, 10:09 AM (This post was last modified: 07-03-2014 10:16 AM by Free.)
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist
(07-03-2014 09:12 AM)donotwant Wrote:  
(07-03-2014 09:11 AM)Free Wrote:  There is no such thing as ... no such thing.

Undecided

Nothing is non existence. There is no such thing as non existence. Something always exists everywhere.

In other words, it is physically impossible for nothingness to exist, and be observed as existing since there would be nothing to observe.

How does one see something that does not exist? It is like god, and like god, nothingness does not exist.

How do you prove that nothing does not exist?

It cannot be proven. It is like infinity; you can never reach the end of it to prove it.

Again, it is not unlike when someone says to prove that God does not exist. Since there is no evidence, how does one prove non existence?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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07-03-2014, 10:22 AM
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist
(06-03-2014 10:08 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  I could have posted this in the science section of the forum, but as theist love to argue with non-theist on a universe coming from nothing, I feel it fits here.

The question is, "what is nothing"? My feeling is that nothing doesn't exist...by definition. I've had this thought before every once in awhile through out my life, but it's come more to a point, or purpose, having read Lawrence Krauss' A Universe from Nothing. In it he argues that the dismissal by theist of a universe coming from nothing is a fault of theist misunderstanding of "nothing" from an archaic perceptive.

I read a lot of things theist say about this, and they basically see it as ridiculous to redefine nothing as a sort of...something. It's hard to not see their point, but I had thought about this a lot in life. What actually is nothing?

The second you define nothing, it becomes a thing. Even if there is nothing there...whatever that could mean...then one could still measure the nothingness there, the size and value, the weight, or lack of weight (that's still a measure) and if you can give any parameters to it...then it's a thing. In that sense, nothing would be a thing. So nothing, couldn't actually be nothing. So there seems there can't really be "nothing". Nothing can't be a thing, and remain nothing.

Krauss' point is that nothing is actually as something. But that's not really my point. The nothing of actual non-existence can't actually be a thing.

I could go on like this...but what are your thoughts? Just curious...
That makes sense to me. Although my brain is fried now after thinking about it. Tongue

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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07-03-2014, 10:32 AM
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist
(07-03-2014 10:09 AM)Free Wrote:  
(07-03-2014 09:12 AM)donotwant Wrote:  How do you prove that nothing does not exist?

It cannot be proven. It is like infinity; you can never reach the end of it to prove it.

Again, it is not unlike when someone says to prove that God does not exist. Since there is no evidence, how does one prove non existence?

In this case you can't assert that nothing doesn't exist. But the other side can't assert that nothing exists either.
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07-03-2014, 11:01 AM
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist
(07-03-2014 10:32 AM)donotwant Wrote:  
(07-03-2014 10:09 AM)Free Wrote:  It cannot be proven. It is like infinity; you can never reach the end of it to prove it.

Again, it is not unlike when someone says to prove that God does not exist. Since there is no evidence, how does one prove non existence?

In this case you can't assert that nothing doesn't exist. But the other side can't assert that nothing exists either.

Again, it's like this:

Atheist: Prove God exists.
Theist: Prove God does not exist.

Exact same scenario.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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07-03-2014, 11:08 AM
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist
(07-03-2014 11:01 AM)Free Wrote:  
(07-03-2014 10:32 AM)donotwant Wrote:  In this case you can't assert that nothing doesn't exist. But the other side can't assert that nothing exists either.

Again, it's like this:

Atheist: Prove God exists.
Theist: Prove God does not exist.

Exact same scenario.

Yeah but you asserted that nothing doesn't exist. It has to be proven either way.
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07-03-2014, 11:43 AM
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist
(07-03-2014 11:08 AM)donotwant Wrote:  
(07-03-2014 11:01 AM)Free Wrote:  Again, it's like this:

Atheist: Prove God exists.
Theist: Prove God does not exist.

Exact same scenario.

Yeah but you asserted that nothing doesn't exist. It has to be proven either way.

You do not seem to understand. You are saying the exact same thing a theist says when he tells an atheist to prove that God does not exist.

In effect, you are asking me to prove a negative, which is false logic:

Quote:A negative proof is a logical fallacy which takes the structure of:
X is true because there is no proof that X is false.

If the only evidence for something's existence is a lack of evidence for it not existing, then the default position is one of skepticism and not credulity. This type of negative proof is common in proofs of God's existence or in pseudosciences where it is used to attempt to shift the burden of proof onto the skeptic rather than the proponent of the idea. The burden of proof is on the individual proposing existence, not the one questioning existence.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Negative_proof

When something has no evidence of its purported existence, how then does anyone prove it does not exist?

False logic

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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07-03-2014, 11:45 AM
RE: Nothing, doesn't exist
To say that something exists you must prove it.
To say that something does not exist you also must prove it.


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