Now I become death...the destroyer of worlds
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17-12-2013, 01:06 PM
RE: Now I become death...the destroyer of worlds
(17-12-2013 11:55 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 11:48 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Did this post somehow disappear into cyberspace? How is it that the atheists here are going on about SCIENCE here? You are buying into BlowJob's STRAWMAN. He is using the word "science", but what he is talking about is TECHNOLOGY.

I don't need science to know that I can kill someone with a rock. The Scientific Method has only been used for a relatively SHORT period of time in human history. But in the meantime, before science, man invented all sorts of fun technology to destroy his brethren with.

Don't let this idiot get away with conflating TECHNOLOGY with SCIENCE.

Eh. The two rather are inextricably linked.

Technology is impossible without the foundations of science. Proto-science though that may have been, through much of history - but experience-based iterative design, nonetheless...

It's clear I am not going to convince the willfully ignorant. By all means carry on with his boondoggle... Rolleyes

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17-12-2013, 01:24 PM
RE: Now I become death...the destroyer of worlds
(17-12-2013 01:06 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 11:55 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Eh. The two rather are inextricably linked.

Technology is impossible without the foundations of science. Proto-science though that may have been, through much of history - but experience-based iterative design, nonetheless...

It's clear I am not going to convince the willfully ignorant. By all means carry on with his boondoggle... Rolleyes

To consider science and technology as discrete and separable would be a rather... novel way of considering things.

After all, one could attempt to argue that such fundamental processes as trial and error cease to be scientific in any way when not employed as part of a modern, formalised conception of the scientific method. One could, but I doubt one would find many takers.

Notwithstanding that whatever HJ might have had in mind hardly prohibits anyone else from having any response.

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17-12-2013, 01:49 PM
RE: Now I become death...the destroyer of worlds
(17-12-2013 08:01 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  However, the analogy between science and guns does not work very well.
Guns are designed mostly for killing. However, the goal of science is
to increase our knowledge, and ultimately to make us more healthy and make
our lives easier. The part of science that applies this knowledge to make
better weapons is only a very small part. To ban all science, to prevent
weapons from being made, would be to throw the baby out with the
bathwater. Besides, it does not seem possible to stop science and knowledge.
Governments distrust other governments, and if some governments use
science to create better defensive or offensive weapons, then other
governments will follow suit. So it really is more of a political problem, I think.

Nobody is suggesting that science be banned. Certainly not me.....I love science. While it is conceivable that humanity might be better off without science you and I....and the people we know have benefitted from it tremendously. The question posed in this thread is meant to be thought provoking and not to be a call to abandon science.
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17-12-2013, 02:17 PM
RE: Now I become death...the destroyer of worlds
(17-12-2013 01:24 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 01:06 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  It's clear I am not going to convince the willfully ignorant. By all means carry on with his boondoggle... Rolleyes

To consider science and technology as discrete and separable would be a rather... novel way of considering things.


Strawman much? Been taking lessons from BlowMe?


Quote:After all, one could attempt to argue that such fundamental processes as trial and error cease to be scientific in any way when not employed as part of a modern, formalised conception of the scientific method. One could, but I doubt one would find many takers.

You are quibbling and Haywood is OBVIOUSLY deliberately conflating science with technology in an effort to strawman science.


Quote:Notwithstanding that whatever HJ might have had in mind hardly prohibits anyone else from having any response.

Hey, knock yourself out defending BlowJob's straw man. Its stupid and a waste of your time, but have at it.

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17-12-2013, 02:29 PM
RE: Now I become death...the destroyer of worlds
(17-12-2013 02:17 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 01:24 PM)cjlr Wrote:  To consider science and technology as discrete and separable would be a rather... novel way of considering things.

Strawman much? Been taking lessons from BlowMe?

So you would say that
(17-12-2013 11:48 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  You are buying into BlowJob's STRAWMAN. He is using the word "science", but what he is talking about is TECHNOLOGY.
...
Don't let this idiot get away with conflating TECHNOLOGY with SCIENCE.
is not meant to imply that the concepts are separable?

That certainly isn't how I read it.

(17-12-2013 02:17 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
Quote:After all, one could attempt to argue that such fundamental processes as trial and error cease to be scientific in any way when not employed as part of a modern, formalised conception of the scientific method. One could, but I doubt one would find many takers.

You are quibbling...

Rather, restating my contention that science and technology are inseparable, and that while to take one to construe both is sloppy it is not actually unreasonable.

(17-12-2013 02:17 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  and ... Haywood is OBVIOUSLY deliberately conflating science with technology in an effort to strawman science.

I don't particularly see that; it only follows if one allows a distinction to be made between science and technology - which I don't, though you evidently do. If that is granted, and we further grant that failure to make such a distinction clear is attributable to dishonesty or malice rather than ignorance or laziness... sure. The conclusion's fine, so far as it goes. I disagree with the necessary premises.

(17-12-2013 02:17 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
Quote:Notwithstanding that whatever HJ might have had in mind hardly prohibits anyone else from having any response.

Hey, knock yourself out defending BlowJob's straw man. Its stupid and a waste of your time, but have at it.

Oh, my. Do note that that's not what I said.

But the fact remains that all things have costs and benefits; and so having a discussion of such re: science and technology is of some interest.

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17-12-2013, 02:31 PM
RE: Now I become death...the destroyer of worlds
(17-12-2013 01:49 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Nobody is suggesting that science be banned. Certainly not me.....I love science.

You wouldn't know science if it bent you over and fucked you in the ass.


Quote:While it is conceivable that humanity might be better off without science

So you ARE suggesting science "be banned". So, since you are conflating science with technology, renounce everything having to do with science -- including your computer and the internet. And the next time you get sick, don't take any medicine or go to a doctor.

Quote:you and I....and the people we know have benefitted from it tremendously.

Derp.


Quote: The question posed in this thread is meant to be TROLLING.

Fixed that for you.

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17-12-2013, 02:39 PM
RE: Now I become death...the destroyer of worlds
(17-12-2013 02:29 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 02:17 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Strawman much? Been taking lessons from BlowMe?

So you would say that
(17-12-2013 11:48 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  You are buying into BlowJob's STRAWMAN. He is using the word "science", but what he is talking about is TECHNOLOGY.
...
Don't let this idiot get away with conflating TECHNOLOGY with SCIENCE.
is not meant to imply that the concepts are separable?

That certainly isn't how I read it.


You are treating them as if they are one and the same. And quibbling like some theist. A prehistoric club made from a stone lashed to a stick is technology, but it didn't involve the Scientific Method at all.



Quote:
(17-12-2013 02:17 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  You are quibbling...

Rather, restating my contention that science and technology are inseparable, and that while to take one to construe both is sloppy it is not actually unreasonable.

It is when you refuse to see any distinction between the two. A lot of technology has been developed through scientific methods, but that doesn't make technology science. Prehistoric club again.


Quote:
(17-12-2013 02:17 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  and ... Haywood is OBVIOUSLY deliberately conflating science with technology in an effort to strawman science.

I don't particularly see that;

Pull your head out of your ass and you might see.


Quote: it only follows if one allows a distinction to be made between science and technology - which I don't, though you evidently do.

That's your problem. Remember what I said about willful ignorance.

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17-12-2013, 03:07 PM
RE: Now I become death...the destroyer of worlds
(17-12-2013 02:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  You are treating them as if they are one and the same.

Ah! Now there's a thing I did not say.

(but wasn't someone going on about strawmen earlier?)

(17-12-2013 02:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  And quibbling like some theist pedant.

Fixed that for you.

(17-12-2013 02:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  A prehistoric club made from a stone lashed to a stick is technology, but it didn't involve the Scientific Method at all.

It didn't involve the modern scientific method as elaborated upon during the 17th century. Because no shit it didn't.

Tool design in early humans was a constantly evolving field - in design, in materials, in construction, in applications... This necessarily requires that our ancestors were capable of performing tests and recognizing differences. This is not science in a modern sense (again - no shit) but it is most assuredly a stop along the way.

(17-12-2013 02:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
Quote:Rather, restating my contention that science and technology are inseparable, and that while to take one to construe both is sloppy it is not actually unreasonable.

It is when you refuse to see any distinction between the two.

Inseparable and no distinction are not the same thing.

As it happens, that is in fact why I used the one word instead of the other!
Thumbsup

(but wasn't someone saying something about strawmen earlier?)

(17-12-2013 02:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  A lot of technology has been developed through scientific methods, but that doesn't make technology science. Prehistoric club again.

And what I said was that technology was inseparable from certain scientific ideas. Like testing. And explanation. Which were both very much involved in prehistoric tool use.

(17-12-2013 02:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
Quote:I don't particularly see that;

Pull your head out of your ass and you might see.

So, this is one of those "your OPINION is WRONG AND INFERIOR" things.

Gotcha.

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17-12-2013, 03:36 PM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2013 04:00 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: Now I become death...the destroyer of worlds
(17-12-2013 03:07 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 02:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  You are treating them as if they are one and the same.

Ah! Now there's a thing I did not say.

And I didn't claim that was a quote.


What you DID say was this:

Quote:it only follows if one allows a distinction to be made between science and technology - which I don't, though you evidently do.

And yes, that is treating the two if they were one and the same.


Quote:(but wasn't someone going on about strawmen earlier?)


Looks like you wouldn't know a strawman if it bent you over and fucked you in the ass.

Quote:
(17-12-2013 02:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  And quibbling like some theist pedant.

Fixed that for you.

ped·ant
ˈpednt/
noun
noun: pedant; plural noun: pedants


[1] a person who is excessively concerned with minor details and rules [2] or with displaying academic learning.



1) an actual pedant would be concerned with having definitions correct, quite unlike you.

2) Yeah that sounds about right, poseur.


Quote:
(17-12-2013 02:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  A prehistoric club made from a stone lashed to a stick is technology, but it didn't involve the Scientific Method at all.

It didn't involve the modern scientific method as elaborated upon during the 17th century. Because no shit it didn't.


That's right. End of controversy, thank you for your admission that you are quibbling.


Quote:Tool design in early humans was a constantly evolving field - in design, in materials, in construction, in applications... This necessarily requires that our ancestors were capable of performing tests and recognizing differences. This is not science in a modern sense (again - no shit) but it is most assuredly a stop along the way.

Yeah. No shit. It's not science, AT ALL. Guessing that thunder was the work of gods was a stop along the way too, and it's not science, either.


Quote:
(17-12-2013 02:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  It is when you refuse to see any distinction between the two.

Inseparable and no distinction are not the same thing.

As it happens, that is in fact why I used the one word instead of the other!
:thumbsup

Let's look at what you just said:

Quote:it only follows if one allows a distinction to be made between science and technology - which I don't, though you evidently do.

So the only question that remains is whether you are really so stupid that you can't remember what you just said, or you are the most lame and pathetic troll on the internet.


Quote:(but wasn't someone saying something about strawmen earlier?)

It's not strawmanning when it's a direct fucking quote. Can you get any more stupid, Chippy?


Quote:
(17-12-2013 02:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  A lot of technology has been developed through scientific methods, but that doesn't make technology science. Prehistoric club again.

And what I said was that technology was inseparable from certain scientific ideas. Like testing. And explanation. Which were both very much involved in prehistoric tool use.

That doesn't make it science. And then you went on to say this -- wait for it....:

Quote:it only follows if one allows a distinction to be made between science and technology - which I don't, though you evidently do.

So your quibbling here is just as pathetic as BlowJob's.


Quote:
(17-12-2013 02:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Pull your head out of your ass and you might see.

So, this is one of those "your OPINION is WRONG AND INFERIOR" things.

Gotcha.

It's one of those "You refuse to see, so you stuck your head up your ass so you don't HAVE to see" things.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


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17-12-2013, 03:56 PM
RE: Now I become death...the destroyer of worlds
(17-12-2013 08:01 AM)black_squirrel Wrote:  That reminds me of the NRA slogan "guns don't kill people, people kill people."
Which is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

Do you also think that kitchen knives and ball bats should be banned because THEY kill people, too? Rolleyes

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