OBI-WAN KANOBI
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24-11-2014, 11:57 PM
RE: OBI-WAN KANOBI
Can the people who liked the last post I put on this thread please take them down? I threw a tantrum and that doesn't deserve the "Like."

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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25-11-2014, 12:03 AM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2014 12:09 AM by doniston.)
RE: OBI-WAN KANOBI
OK, I've had just about enough of this, and I am going to give it one last shot totry to get across to you regarding what's wrong here.

So to all of you who are paying attention to this issue, I will ask you to do us all a favor. Each of you please think of of some hardwired moral belief or opinion you have either for or against a particular action, like premarital sex, abortion, same- sex marriage, theivery, smoking, drinking, or even jaywalking. That you feel very strongly about

.Then tell yourself how you could demonstrate your feelings about it to another person. It doesn't matter if you do it or not, "just how you feel about it". and how would you prove that to another person.

You can say I do it, or don't do it, that is your proof of opinion, and if there is a law about the issue, you can use that as evidence that you are proper, but without that law, how would you prove or demonstrate your belief or opinion? Can't do it, can you?
.
Now, do you recall how this started? Back about thirty posts in response to my comment “ WHO or WHAT BEGAT THE BEGATOR” (more or less in the form of a question.“) a poster said,

“You need to demonstrate the existence of a begator before you can ask that.”

That is 'FLAT WRONG” and precisely the same as telling a theist that they must prove their god is real before he or she can talk about their God. That was what I objected to I have been very open to discuss any and all of my beliefs and opinions but this is asking for the impossible.

"I don't Debate, I Discuss" I offer my opinions, and listen to yours, I will not require proof of opinions, but I may ask for clarification or state that I reject your position and why, & if asked, I will further clarify mine --- However, I reject any requirement that I PROVE my position is accurate and proper.
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25-11-2014, 12:21 AM
RE: OBI-WAN KANOBI
(25-11-2014 12:03 AM)doniston Wrote:  I will ask you to do us all a favor. Each of you please think of of some hardwired moral belief or opinion you have either for or against a particular action, like premarital sex, abortion, same- sex marriage, theivery, smoking, drinking, or even jaywalking. That you feel very strongly about

.Then tell yourself how you could demonstrate your feelings about it to another person. It doesn't matter if you do it or not, "just how you feel about it". and how would you prove that to another person.
OK
Pre-marital sex, been there done that, happy for others to do it.
abortion, haven't had one but happy for others to do it.
same- sex marriage haven't done it, but happy for others to do it.
theivery, I have some issues with this, will get back to this.
smoking, been there done that, didn't like it, happy for others to do it.
drinking, been there done that, happy for others to do it.
jaywalking, been there done that, happy for others to do it.

So, only theivery.
How does it make me feel?
If you steal my stuff then it makes me feel violated. Like my personal space has been invaded. Would make me feel insecure about leaving home. I would need a way to guard my stuff.
Is that sufficient explaination?
I could prove it to another person by showing them the locks I have installed in my home.
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25-11-2014, 12:39 AM
RE: OBI-WAN KANOBI
(25-11-2014 12:03 AM)doniston Wrote:  So to all of you who are paying attention to this issue, I will ask you to do us all a favor. Each of you please think of of some hardwired moral belief or opinion you have either for or against a particular action, like premarital sex, abortion, same- sex marriage, theivery, smoking, drinking, or even jaywalking. That you feel very strongly about

.Then tell yourself how you could demonstrate your feelings about it to another person. It doesn't matter if you do it or not, "just how you feel about it". and how would you prove that to another person.

You can say I do it, or don't do it, that is your proof of opinion, and if there is a law about the issue, you can use that as evidence that you are proper, but without that law, how would you prove or demonstrate your belief or opinion? Can't do it, can you?

Just sort of joining in now. First I'd get brain scans of lots of people in different emotional states to work up a benchmark of what different emotions look like. Then I'd provide a stimulous about the question involved to see if my response corresponds to the emotion I claim to have about the issue. At present this is problematic from a technical perspective.

However that really isn't the same thing at all as demonstrating the existence of some entity. Your perceptions and emotions exist subjectively and temporarily. Your existence as an entity, while also temporary, is much less suvjective. Plus, I personally would start with just asking for evidence that ANY such entity exists. I'm far more willing to discuss a particular concept or belief about a god if some entity we can label god had been established to exist.

In your question the moral issue is established, the existence of emotions generally and whatever emotion in specific are established, and you can then subjectively state you hold position A about issue B causing emotion C. Even without direct evidence that YOU specifically hold A and C about B, the fact that A, B, and C exist means there is the potential for conversation.
If you want a better method, you'd have to demand evidence that the moral issue exists (but since those are defined by us they exist if humans decide they exist, which they have, so they do), that emotions, generally, exist, that the specific emotion exists, and that a particular person is capable of that emotion (which brain scans can cover).

Effectively, unless you're being asked to prove something internal to you, a subjective experience that is not based on some objective external reality, I think your analogy fails. Hence why we can ask for proof of god.
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25-11-2014, 02:18 AM
RE: OBI-WAN KANOBI
(25-11-2014 12:03 AM)doniston Wrote:  So to all of you who are paying attention to this issue, I will ask you to do us all a favor. Each of you please think of of some hardwired moral belief or opinion you have either for or against a particular action, like premarital sex, abortion, same- sex marriage, theivery, smoking, drinking, or even jaywalking. That you feel very strongly about.

There's your problem. I might be involuntary squirm a bit when I see two men kiss, and you might be able to argue that is a 'hardwired' response; but I have enough intelligence, skepticism, empathy, and introspection to realize that my involuntary uncomfortable reaction is not legitimate grounds to deny them equal rights and relegate them to a discriminated minority status.

Reactions might be hardwired at times, but that's not an excuse for your intellectually facile grandstanding. Drinking Beverage

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25-11-2014, 03:38 AM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2014 03:52 AM by doniston.)
RE: OBI-WAN KANOBI
[ 2
Quote:That's fine. Do you at least accept my apology?
I might have, but then you went right on being you old stuffed(well named) egotistical, arrogant disgusting self- centered know-i -all that doesn't know-it-all, including especially, at the end of this post.

Quote:Reference How high is up and where are we, Did you really think it necessary to try to give me coordinants of where in the Universe the earth sits? It would be like locating the real Mickey mouse in one of numerous Disney worlds. Who the hell cares. Pure wasted effort

Again: You asked a malformed question. I interpreted it literally because you're not being clear.
or perhaps you can't understand plain English

Quote:Curved space? For the first time you have made a semblance of sense and you indeed have a handle, but I think if it faulty, This is one of the places where I disagree with Einstein, The way I see his theory is more in keeping with the theory of folded space, and that you can get anywhere from anywhere thru the folds

You're referring to an Eisenstein|Rosenberg bridge or a wormhole. The potential formation of a wormhole is a potential consequence of warped space/time and has nothing to do with the shape of the universe.
and then you had to spoil it

Quote: (Your answer) We do know. It's been demonstrated mathmatically. (mine)NONSENSE just figures, not proof
(yours)I think you mean define it's dimensions; it's size and some of it's shape. we have determined the size and "shape" of the universe using this experimental devise it gives us a minimum size for the universe and demonstrates that this universe must be finite.

Can you find any problems with this experimental method and how it was ratified?
Note the word experimental. still no proof..[

Quote:You have entirely missed the point and my statement was perfectly justified.
still disgusting.
Quote:Do solar systems share any kind of meaningful similarity to atoms?
Do solar systems interact in a way that would allow them to bond in a way that allows an atom exist in a compound?
Do we have any reason to believe that any kind of organism exists on the scale you're talking about?
I have no Idea if you know what you are talking about.
Quote:(Your comment)Yes our local supermassive black hole is surrounded by a quasar. ( My questions), Do you know what a quazar is??? where did you get this idea?
you didn't answer that?
Quote:Yes I do: A quasar is an extremely energetic expulsion of matter as it is drawn into a black hole, before it crosses the event horizon.
apparently not, the Quazar come OUT of the black hole and did you know Wikipedia is disputed as being factual?

Do youreally know what a quasar is?

Quote:“ WHO or WHAT BEGAT THE BEGATOR”
(Your comment)You need to demonstrate the existence of a begator before you can ask that. (My comment) That's where you are |SOOOOOOOO “ wrong. I don't have to demonstrate anything in a discussion.
I'm including that so the posters will remember who started this latest uproar.

Quote:
This has been explained to you about five times. So I'm not going to bother.
Quote:Do you honestly not think that presenting relevant information is pertenient to your position? [/quote
Now do you know what a demonstration is?????

Quote: You're just being lazy and intellectually dishonest.
nope, but why do you think I am? because I disagree with you and don't buy your crap?


[ I discuss but I don't have to demonstrate anything especially that there is a creator, enforcer, enabler, when I am an atheist, and It is simply my opinion. NO (repeat) "NO PROOF, thus no demonstration. discussion yes, demonstration NO demonstration is PROOF
EACH OF YOPU< PLEASE TAKE NOTE I am discussing anything which comes along, that does not include a demonstration.







Quote: somehow emblematic of how you think the world operates[/url] in a lies to children way you are just obfuscating until you can demonstrate that something like the force exists. it appears somewhat insulting, and certainly not civil.

Let me try again:

You need to provide evidence or some kind of logical reasoning for your position! THERE IS NO REASON TO TALK TO YOU WITHOUT THAT!
now see, that was reasonable.
.
quazars only expel energy

Quote: The quasar is it'self energy, not matter. so I think you are wrong. further, in another part of your tirade, you state that a quasar surrounds the black hole??? where did you ever get such an Idea.??

Quote:Do you see the problem here? You haven't said anything that supports this position.
perhaps because you are supporting a false principle..

]

Quote:. To discuss something is to talk about it. To debate something is to talk about something, with somebody who disagrees with you or talk about something in a formal matter.
I fully agree, but you don't want to discuss the issues. you want proof. that you can't get from pure opinion. evidence yes, and discussion yes, but proof, no. That's YOUR problem.



but in my case , I am quite willing to talk about and discuss the issues but I refuse to allow you to force me to try to do the impossible,-- TO PROVE AN OPINION It can't be done.
and in this case, what the hell do you think I have been trying to do other than talk about, and discuss the issues? you are asking the impossible. With this particular argument, you are talking like an ass..

Quote: HOW FAR IS UP was in referene to where we stand,.

I already explained that in detail, but apparently you just don't pay attention.
the up was away from the planet you know like up in the sky.?? and distance wise, it would appear to go on forever. and where are we.? your bedroom is in your house which is in your neighborhood, which is in your state which is----- all the way to the far reaches of the known universe and beyond, but where is that beyond? in an unknown kind of lake, and where then is the lake it has to be contained in something. In both cases the answer lies somewhere in infinity.


Quote: I wasn't serious when I insulted you earlier. There was no venom behind it I was honestly trying to engage with you.
hmm! it sure came out like venom and like the following
Quote:So believe me when I say that I don't care any more.

You're a shit-licking liar. An inherently dishonest, stupid little fucktard without the nouse or the balls to give a dry skeet about what you're talking about or care about any form of culpability or evidence.

What you're saying is retarded and you don't care.

This is infuriating.
It doesn' matter, I've already reported you, and if it continues, I will continue to do so. you are not funny, or wise, or even decent so why do you act that way.

Quote: Don. You have repeatedly lied, failed to admit fault and just stated premises without support. That's bullshit and I don't want to talk to you as a result of that.[/quote, Then don't talk to me. that's fine with me if that's the way you feel. however, It may interest you to know, I will still respond to the rest of your rants, as I can, but only those comments I deem worthy of response. That of course will be most of them. however, you are lying when you say I lied, I haven't, I don't recall failing to admit fault except what YOU declare to be fault

[quote] That doesn't matter; I'm sorry for insulting you like that. That was, again, out of line.
but yet you continue doing it, sounds very hypocritical to me.

"I don't Debate, I Discuss" I offer my opinions, and listen to yours, I will not require proof of opinions, but I may ask for clarification or state that I reject your position and why, & if asked, I will further clarify mine --- However, I reject any requirement that I PROVE my position is accurate and proper.
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25-11-2014, 06:29 AM
RE: OBI-WAN KANOBI
Reading a bit more on this, it looks to me like doniston has proposed some entity or object A, which in his unfounded opinion exists, and then went on to discuss the what-if possibilities should that entity exist. The response to this seems to be that as we do not accept that the entity or object exists without evidence, the entire what-if discussion is meaningless.
There is a point to both sides if that is the case. On the one side, considering the counterfactual can sometimes lead to insight if we can select the factual from within the phase space of the conceptually possible via some rule or mechanism. On the other, it doesn't look like this is that sort of thing where a known fact is being considered absent, and more or less instantly hits "we don't know", and when an opinion is then expressed about an answer with no support for that answer it's just as quickly followed by "who cares". As an example: we can ask if Napoleon liked asparagus. We instantly get the correct answer "we don't know". If I suggest it's my opinion that he didn't like it just because that seems sensible to me (asparagus, ew!), the only response that makes any sense is to ask me why I would think so, ie asking me to demonstrate the validity of my opinion. If my response there is "I can't and don't have to, it's just an opinion", then the only response I should expect in any serious discussion is "oh... who cares, then? It's just an opinion, not really worth talking about except for entertainment and the topic and direction of the opinion isn't entertaining". This is the atheism/theism board, and things like that belong in the casual coffeehouse forum along with discussion on what the best single super power would be if nothing else about your life changed (the answer is "mind control", is case you were interested, and not, as Cracked on YT suggested, the TimeOut ability of Zach from Saved By The Bell).
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25-11-2014, 07:03 AM
RE: OBI-WAN KANOBI
(24-11-2014 08:25 PM)doniston Wrote:  I am being asked to effectively "prove" my opinions. that is absolutely impossible. and you can't prove your opinions either. if they are provable. then they are facts, not just opinions. now if you have paid attention, you will realize you are asking the impossible.

I am not asking you to PROVE your opinions. I am asking you to provide evidence for those opinions or, at the very least, to explain how and why you came to hold them. With nothing at all of substance behind your claims they are nothing but farts in the wind. If you have paid attention you should see that your type of "discussion" is a complete waste of time.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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25-11-2014, 07:14 AM
RE: OBI-WAN KANOBI
(25-11-2014 12:03 AM)doniston Wrote:  Each of you please think of of some hardwired moral belief or opinion you have either for or against a particular action, like premarital sex, abortion, same- sex marriage, theivery, smoking, drinking, or even jaywalking.

Setting aside the idea of there being hardwired moral opinions, what the hell would they have to do with claims about atoms, solar systems, quasars or the shape of the universe? If you were presenting opinions on same-sex marriage or abortion then the entire thread would have likely taken a different direction. You are presenting opinions on scientific issues that are objectively right or wrong. Your opinion on the morality of smoking is not in the same category as your "opinion" of what a quasar is.

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25-11-2014, 07:20 AM
RE: OBI-WAN KANOBI
(24-11-2014 11:57 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  Can the people who liked the last post I put on this thread please take them down? I threw a tantrum and that doesn't deserve the "Like."

I added a like to the earlier post after you posted this but before I saw the request and you had already edited the original to include your regrets anyway. The like was for the bulk of the reply which was right on target. Besides, I fully sympathize with the frustration as doniston appears to be an impenetrable wall of woo.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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