OMG, I've Got It!
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29-04-2013, 08:07 PM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2013 10:02 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: OMG, I've Got It!
(29-04-2013 04:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-04-2013 04:05 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  The very late, very great, John Archibald Wheeler seems not so quick to judgment: "Does the Universe Exist if We're Not Looking?"

It is an incoherent and contradictory argument.

Yabut, the evidence is that things behave that way on a quantum level only. He still needs a huge intact galaxy, in every, (both) case(s). There is no evidence that at the non-quantum level, he can extrapolate the observations.

And secondly, great minds can make up lovely fictions. They can also make huge mistakes, as Einstein did. I think I'll wait for the evidence.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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30-04-2013, 09:08 AM
RE: OMG, I've Got It!
(29-04-2013 06:48 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(29-04-2013 06:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, backed by interpretation of evidence. The interpretation is nuts.

Uh huh, yes, yes it is. Can I pour you some tea while we discuss all the problems with the Copenhagen Interpretation and more? Like Everett's nutty Manyworlds interpretation. Big Grin ...

Hmmm, are we sort of agreeing? Consider

Heisenberg stated that measuring, not observing, affects the observation.

The phrase 'wave function collapse' has been so tainted by the thinking that something physical happens that the actual meaning seems lost. The wave function is a purely mathematical probability distribution.

The idea that every event causes actual branching of reality and the idea that the cat is neither dead nor alive are equally wacko, neither having any actual evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-04-2013, 09:31 AM
RE: OMG, I've Got It!
(29-04-2013 08:07 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(29-04-2013 04:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  It is an incoherent and contradictory argument.

Yabut, the evidence is that things behave that way on a quantum level only. He still needs a huge intact galaxy, in every, (both) case(s). There is no evidence that at the non-quantum level, he can extrapolate the observations.

Quantum superposition signatures have been observed by the visible eye at the macro level. First quantum effects seen in visible object.

(30-04-2013 09:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-04-2013 06:48 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Uh huh, yes, yes it is. Can I pour you some tea while we discuss all the problems with the Copenhagen Interpretation and more? Like Everett's nutty Manyworlds interpretation. Big Grin ...

Hmmm, are we sort of agreeing? Consider

Sort of, I think. All interpretations of quantum mechanics are equal mindfucks. I ain't qualified to take any side so I just bop from whore to whore getting mindfucked in different ways. Big Grin

"Do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid it, 'But how can it be like that?' because you will get 'down the drain,' into a blind alley from which nobody has yet escaped. Nobody knows how it can be like that." - Feynman

"I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." - Feynman

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
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30-04-2013, 09:44 AM
RE: OMG, I've Got It!
(30-04-2013 09:31 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Quantum superposition signatures have been observed by the visible eye at the macro level. First quantum effects seen in visible object.

It's still an unstable special case.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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30-04-2013, 11:06 AM
RE: OMG, I've Got It!
(30-04-2013 09:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-04-2013 06:48 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Uh huh, yes, yes it is. Can I pour you some tea while we discuss all the problems with the Copenhagen Interpretation and more? Like Everett's nutty Manyworlds interpretation. Big Grin ...

Hmmm, are we sort of agreeing? Consider

Heisenberg stated that measuring, not observing, affects the observation.

The phrase 'wave function collapse' has been so tainted by the thinking that something physical happens that the actual meaning seems lost. The wave function is a purely mathematical probability distribution.

The idea that every event causes actual branching of reality and the idea that the cat is neither dead nor alive are equally wacko, neither having any actual evidence.

You can't observe without measuring. The preciseness of your measurement may be called into question, but you cannot observe anything with measuring one way or another.

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30-04-2013, 11:25 AM
RE: OMG, I've Got It!
(30-04-2013 11:06 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(30-04-2013 09:08 AM)Chas Wrote:  Hmmm, are we sort of agreeing? Consider

Heisenberg stated that measuring, not observing, affects the observation.

The phrase 'wave function collapse' has been so tainted by the thinking that something physical happens that the actual meaning seems lost. The wave function is a purely mathematical probability distribution.

The idea that every event causes actual branching of reality and the idea that the cat is neither dead nor alive are equally wacko, neither having any actual evidence.

You can't observe without measuring. The preciseness of your measurement may be called into question, but you cannot observe anything with measuring one way or another.

No, I can't agree with that. The difference is between actively measuring and passively observing.

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is a statement about active measurement; hitting a particle with a photon - the greater the energy of the photon, the greater the accuracy of measuring the position or momentum, but the greater the uncertainty of the other property.

We observe, for instance, stellar phenomena and learn a great deal but we haven't affected the star.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-04-2013, 03:04 PM
RE: OMG, I've Got It!
I think this is an issue of definitions, but when I observe anything, no matter what combination of senses I use I am measuring it is some way. I can't help but measure it, that's how brains work. I see a squirrel in my yard, my brain instantly begins figuring out about how big it is and how far away it is based on past experiences with the rodents and by comparing to nearby objects whose size I know. When I hear a bump in the night my mind compares the noise to past experiences with cats knocking things off of tables and determines if there is a match. I say again, you cannot observe without measuring on some level, and to observe is to alter the outcome. For example, if you hadn't read this then it would have never been typed, all of you, BOOM! I win Wink

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30-04-2013, 04:24 PM
RE: OMG, I've Got It!
(30-04-2013 03:04 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I think this is an issue of definitions, but when I observe anything, no matter what combination of senses I use I am measuring it is some way. I can't help but measure it, that's how brains work. I see a squirrel in my yard, my brain instantly begins figuring out about how big it is and how far away it is based on past experiences with the rodents and by comparing to nearby objects whose size I know. When I hear a bump in the night my mind compares the noise to past experiences with cats knocking things off of tables and determines if there is a match. I say again, you cannot observe without measuring on some level, and to observe is to alter the outcome. For example, if you hadn't read this then it would have never been typed, all of you, BOOM! I win Wink

Yes it it - but your definition of 'measure' is not what Heisenberg said. Observation is passive, including your concept of passive measurement.

Observation has no effect on the observed.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-05-2013, 07:50 PM
RE: OMG, I've Got It!
(30-04-2013 04:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  Observation has no effect on the observed.

Yabut, "Several implementations of the [Wheeler's Delayed Choice] experiment 1984-2007 showed that the act of observation ultimately determines whether the photon will behave as a particle or wave, verifying the unintuitive results of the thought experiment."

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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01-05-2013, 07:53 PM
RE: OMG, I've Got It!
(01-05-2013 07:50 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(30-04-2013 04:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  Observation has no effect on the observed.

Yabut, "Several implementations of the [Wheeler's Delayed Choice] experiment 1984-2007 showed that the act of observation ultimately determines whether the photon will behave as a particle or wave, verifying the unintuitive results of the thought experiment."

I think that just may be the most text used for a link in the history of the internet Tongue

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