OT God is Lucifer?
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29-07-2017, 06:42 PM
OT God is Lucifer?
So, I was debating with a christian on a debate group on facebook, and while we were discussing (largely about the reasons that I don't believe in the christian god) they brought up an idea reminiscent of the early christian sects. They claimed that the OT god was actually lucifer, not the god of christianity.

Now, of course, this seems like an attempt to try to justify their god as absolutely perfect despite the proof otherwise. Moreover, it's kind of funny that when I brought up the passage when NT god kills two people for dishonesty, they claimed that it was lucifer doing that also, so evidently every time god does something evil in the bible, it's not actually god.

So obviously they had no proof for their idea other than some badly interpreted bible verses. In my opinion, it's an interesting but unsupported idea. Mostly I just wanted to know if anyone else had heard this argument, and how prominent it is.
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29-07-2017, 06:54 PM
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
Never heard this.
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29-07-2017, 07:16 PM
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
(29-07-2017 06:54 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Never heard this.
Me neither. It's certainly not mainstream Christian orthodoxy. The only thing that comes close is arguments recently in these fora by a liberal Christian that the OT and NT gods were "completely different" (which I also had never heard of before). But he didn't go so far as to identify the OT deity as Lucifer. Nor can I think of any scriptural basis to do so. Dog knows you can make up all sorts of crap and find some scripture that seems to back it, but that assertion would be a real doozy to sell to the vast majority of Christians.
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29-07-2017, 07:17 PM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2017 08:19 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
Nope.
It's a mistranslation/misuse of a Latin word, that was used to translate "morning star", (the Canaanites believed that Venus, the "morning star" was a star that had fallen from heaven).
In Isaiah 14, he taunts the King of Babylon by calling him that (the morning star, which would be understood as a "fallen star".)
The name much LATER came to be a proper name, naming a devil, (a Christian invention).

""How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: 'Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?'"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer#In_Isaiah_14:12

Latin dictionary :
lucifer, lucifera, luciferum
adjective
Definitions:
light bringing, (ie the object that "brings up" the sun).

"The Latin text of the chant, a passage from Psalm 110 (Vulgate 109) in the Old Testament, is: "In splendoribus sanctorum, ex utero, ante luciferum, genui te" which in English is "In the brightness of the saints: from the womb before the day star I have begotten you." (Douay Bible, 1610). As a matter of fact, this Psalm verse was (maybe still is ??) used by Christians (Catholics) for centuries in the Christmas Midnight Mass, (introit) and the phrase "before the daystar, I have begotten thee", specifically was thought to refer to Jesus, and there is NOT any possibility they ever thought it referred to a devil.

Conclusion: "Lucifer" was not a proper name in the OT, and referred to Venus, a "light bringer", or possibly a fallen star, (which is where the 'fallen angel" thing came from).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-07-2017, 07:22 PM
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
(29-07-2017 06:42 PM)LawOfTheSeas Wrote:  So, I was debating with a christian on a debate group on facebook, and while we were discussing (largely about the reasons that I don't believe in the christian god) they brought up an idea reminiscent of the early christian sects. They claimed that the OT god was actually lucifer, not the god of christianity.

Now, of course, this seems like an attempt to try to justify their god as absolutely perfect despite the proof otherwise. Moreover, it's kind of funny that when I brought up the passage when NT god kills two people for dishonesty, they claimed that it was lucifer doing that also, so evidently every time god does something evil in the bible, it's not actually god.

So obviously they had no proof for their idea other than some badly interpreted bible verses. In my opinion, it's an interesting but unsupported idea. Mostly I just wanted to know if anyone else had heard this argument, and how prominent it is.

Sounds like they are just employing a post-hoc rationale to divorce themselves from the OT god because they don't want to defend that god.

Though the idea that the OT god is a different god is a reasonable assertion. Marcion of Sinope asserted the same concept in the 2nd century.

That's why the Catholics established the canonical bible we know today as a response to this idea. They had to assert that ONLY their version of god and THEIR particular holy texts counted, all of the rest was heresy and could get you the comfy chair:




Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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29-07-2017, 07:25 PM
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
(29-07-2017 07:22 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  could get you the comfy chair:

Wouldn't mind a visit from the Spanish Inquisition right about now - have been editing sat upon the bed and lemme tell you - NOT as comfortable as one might think Dodgy

But only if they bring a comfy desk too...

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"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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29-07-2017, 11:52 PM
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
It's always hllarious to me how the OT God is obviously completely evil, yet hiding in plain sight as a "loving God". He just tells people how good he is, and they believe him. Just like Christians tell us, despite all the evidence to the contrary in this supposed world it created.

But from the point of view of Christian theology, I've not heard of this before. People can of course make up any shit they like, that's what religion is about.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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30-07-2017, 01:17 AM
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
(29-07-2017 06:42 PM)LawOfTheSeas Wrote:  So, I was debating with a christian on a debate group on facebook, and while we were discussing (largely about the reasons that I don't believe in the christian god) they brought up an idea reminiscent of the early christian sects. They claimed that the OT god was actually lucifer, not the god of christianity.

Now, of course, this seems like an attempt to try to justify their god as absolutely perfect despite the proof otherwise. Moreover, it's kind of funny that when I brought up the passage when NT god kills two people for dishonesty, they claimed that it was lucifer doing that also, so evidently every time god does something evil in the bible, it's not actually god.

So obviously they had no proof for their idea other than some badly interpreted bible verses. In my opinion, it's an interesting but unsupported idea. Mostly I just wanted to know if anyone else had heard this argument, and how prominent it is.

Heard something similar - gnosticism namely.

There is also a mention of OT god being false one according to some early christian writer in Ehrman The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings if I'm not mistaken.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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30-07-2017, 04:20 AM
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
Lucem Ferre - the bringer of light.

Never heard of anyone referring to Lucifer as the god of the OT before. I always thought of Lucifer as the good character vs Yahweh as the bad (very bad).

What you describe sounds like someone who can't deal with their supposed "loving" god doing all that killing. It's like they don't realize that Yahweh is the god of war.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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30-07-2017, 05:49 AM
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
Floozie fur?

Smile

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
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