OT God is Lucifer?
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30-07-2017, 07:12 AM
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
(29-07-2017 06:42 PM)LawOfTheSeas Wrote:  So, I was debating with a christian on a debate group on facebook...

One never has a "debate" with a theist. It's a total waste of time and effort. Period.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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30-07-2017, 07:40 AM
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
(30-07-2017 07:12 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(29-07-2017 06:42 PM)LawOfTheSeas Wrote:  So, I was debating with a christian on a debate group on facebook...

One never has a "debate" with a theist. It's a total waste of time and effort. Period.

In my experience, it's very often continued deflection from actually having the debate.

It reminds me somewhat of Family Guy. Just as the dialogue is reaching some sort of meaningful point, we get a "cut away" with a ridiculous analogy or red herring so that the point is ruined. (I love Family Guy, of course!)

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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30-07-2017, 08:43 AM
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
(29-07-2017 07:16 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(29-07-2017 06:54 PM)Aliza Wrote:  ~snip~
~snip~
I have heard the 'completely different' explanation before. But yeah, it s so easy to reinterpret the bible to fit your own agenda.

(29-07-2017 07:17 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  ~snip~
That's very interesting. But what they meant was that OT god was the satan - the adversary of the """true god""".

(29-07-2017 07:22 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  ~snip~
I think that is basically it. They don't want to associate themselves with something so evil (and who can blame them, really?) and so try to reinterpret everything differently. But that's interesting about Marcion of Sinope. Never heard much of their work.

Also, glad to see there are more Python fans here!

(29-07-2017 11:52 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  ~snip~
I know, right? I once asked a christian friend of mine what makes god good, as in what traits define him as good rather than bad, and he could not answer, and yet continued to believe it. I often catch myself laughing at stuff like that and thinking, "Holy crap, I used to believe this!"

But yeah, religion is like an art assignment. Make the thing up and then just interpret it however you want to.

(30-07-2017 01:17 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  ~snip~
Oh! That is interesting. Will have to check that out.

(30-07-2017 04:20 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  ~snip~
I think you're right on both fronts, there. Lucifer killed far less than yahweh in the bible, and it is obviously just someone who cannot handle the truth that their god is evil.

(30-07-2017 07:12 AM)SYZ Wrote:  One never has a "debate" with a theist. It's a total waste of time and effort. Period.
Don't get me wrong, majoritively you're correct, but there are some gems out there who, if it weren't for the illogical stuff they believe, are good at debating properly.

(30-07-2017 07:40 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  In my experience, it's very often continued deflection from actually having the debate.
You may be right there...
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30-07-2017, 08:49 AM
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
(30-07-2017 08:43 AM)LawOfTheSeas Wrote:  That's very interesting. But what they meant was that OT god was the satan - the adversary of the """true god""".

OT god being adversary of "real god" would be gnosticism if I'm not mistaken. False god would be demiurge in this.

It might have something to do with Catharism and earlier heresies.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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30-07-2017, 08:37 PM
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
Yeah, and I'm King Isildur. Dodgy
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30-07-2017, 08:44 PM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2017 08:51 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
(30-07-2017 08:43 AM)LawOfTheSeas Wrote:  That's very interesting. But what they meant was that OT god was the satan - the adversary of the """true god""".

For decades, if not centuries, (including Jesus himself) the first Christians, (who were Jews) worshiped that adversary then. When exactly do they do the switcheroo ?
""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
So then all the prophets were working for the "adversary god", and the ones who foretold Jesus were working for Satan, and Satan created their universe, and brought the Jews out of Egypt ?

Riiiiiight. Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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31-07-2017, 06:08 AM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2017 06:14 AM by M. Linoge.)
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
Never heard the argument but sorta deduced that perspective from my understanding of the past versions of Yahweh worship.

At some point the indolent hippies two thousand years ago grew tired of worshipping a deity that dealt out cruelty and mercy seemingly at random. (plus it's difficult to sell a god like that to recruits)
So their childish imaginations divides the god into two separate entities - inventing a lesser, dark spirit whom masterminds a complex war against the all-powerful goodness - for reasons irrational. Something to blame and hate for all the evils of the world. (takes some of the burden off women for ruining the world with knowledge)

Lucifer has always been the excuse for the parts of "god" that people don't like, so yes. Lucifer is god, whenever your faith tells you s/he is. Same way some of the bible - specifically the parts you don't like - is metaphorical. The rest is absolutely true.
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31-07-2017, 06:21 AM
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
(30-07-2017 08:44 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(30-07-2017 08:43 AM)LawOfTheSeas Wrote:  That's very interesting. But what they meant was that OT god was the satan - the adversary of the """true god""".

For decades, if not centuries, (including Jesus himself) the first Christians, (who were Jews) worshiped that adversary then. When exactly do they do the switcheroo ?

It probably started somewhere around I chronicles 21:1
"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

I think that's the first passage where "Satan" becomes an definable entity.
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31-07-2017, 05:31 PM
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
died, woke up, and flew away. no need to talk until that is resolved. Unfortunately, when we can do it, that won't be the sticking point.
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31-07-2017, 05:39 PM
RE: OT God is Lucifer?
(31-07-2017 05:31 PM)AB517 Wrote:  died, woke up, and flew away. no need to talk until that is resolved. Unfortunately, when we can do it, that won't be the sticking point.

Not unlike your sanity.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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