OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
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24-04-2013, 07:24 PM
OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
Greetings,

I'm wondering what you all think about the issue of the New Testament and Jesus' sacrifice essentially erasing the entire Old Testament version of god. One thing that confounds me with Christians (and I used to think this way too!) is how they are able to rationalize everything horrible out of the OT by Jesus' sacrifice in the NT. They interpret what Jesus said in Matthew 5: 17-18 [“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”] to mean that Jesus fulfilled the law and therefore its all new again, but my position is that Jesus absolutely meant that he believes that the law (the OT) should be followed then and for all time thereafter. He was a Jew, and not trying to create a new religion.

What do you think about those who would say that you do not need the OT to have the OT? I personally believe that without the OT, you cannot have the NT, thus Christianity, and you cannot erase everything in the OT, which leads me to my conclusion that Yahwah is a bastard, and lucky for me I don't believe in him anymore.

The reason I ask is because a former Christian mentor of mine has been somewhat stalking me on Facebook and basically publicly called me ignorant, I presume because I take the approach that the OT is still a valid tool to criticize Christianity.

Thoughts? Ammo? Discuss!

"If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." ~Rene Descartes.
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24-04-2013, 07:39 PM
RE: OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
New Covenant Theology (or NCT) is a Christian theological system which teaches that the Old Testament Laws have been fulfilled and abrogated or cancelled with Christ's death, and replaced with the Law of Christ of the New Covenant. It shares similarities and yet is distinct from Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology and attempts to eliminate the perceived weak points of the two.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Covenant_Theology


I think NCT is really a trick. In the modern world the majority of the things in the bible are redicoulus. So in order to get in touch with the times, some christians thought it would be a good idea to pretend the old testament is just a story book that's semi-historical, and that the new testament is more accurate but also semi-historical.

This way they resolve their own cognitive dissonance, get around defending the old testament, and only have to defend the death and resurrection of Jesus.

However the breaking point in this theology is if god wrote the book through the hands of human beings, and it's inaccurate. Then something happened, either people were allowed to have their own free will and made mistakes/inserted personal feelings/lied etc, or god lied. If the bible is inaccurate and there is no way of fixing it, or testing the truth's from the lies, then why believe in it at all?

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24-04-2013, 07:41 PM (This post was last modified: 24-04-2013 07:55 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
You're probably wasting your time. However, Jebus was an apocalyptic preacher, (one of many), who thought the end-times were upon them. As such he certainly did not intend to start anything new. For hundreds of years actually, the followers of the Way cult, (Christians) were actually still Jews, in many places. In 400 CE. ("St.") John Chrysostom was bitching at them, in his Christmas sermon to stop going to the synagogue. The "salvation" business is pretty complicated. But there's lots of ammo.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ic-Origins
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-Look
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-look

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24-04-2013, 08:35 PM
RE: OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
(24-04-2013 07:41 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You're probably wasting your time.

That is probably certain, yet I have this insane need to know what I'm talking about. So far you both have essentially confirmed my viewpoint as of now. I'm just trying to be able to better articulate it it in a discussion. Ironically my friend who called me ignorant often says some of the most ignorant things I've ever heard. And I don't think it was so much that he thinks I'm ignorant as I have chosen to reject the NCT dogma he taught me and start thinking for myself. Thanks!

"If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." ~Rene Descartes.
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24-04-2013, 08:37 PM
RE: OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
(24-04-2013 07:39 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  New Covenant Theology (or NCT) is a Christian theological system which teaches that the Old Testament Laws have been fulfilled and abrogated or cancelled with Christ's death, and replaced with the Law of Christ of the New Covenant. It shares similarities and yet is distinct from Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology and attempts to eliminate the perceived weak points of the two.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Covenant_Theology


I think NCT is really a trick...
This way they resolve their own cognitive dissonance, get around defending the old testament, and only have to defend the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Absolutely agree. This is why I incurred his wrath and was labeled ignorant. I went against the party line and stepped into logic.

"If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." ~Rene Descartes.
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24-04-2013, 09:58 PM
RE: OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
(24-04-2013 08:37 PM)PersephoneK Wrote:  
(24-04-2013 07:39 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  New Covenant Theology (or NCT) is a Christian theological system which teaches that the Old Testament Laws have been fulfilled and abrogated or cancelled with Christ's death, and replaced with the Law of Christ of the New Covenant. It shares similarities and yet is distinct from Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology and attempts to eliminate the perceived weak points of the two.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Covenant_Theology


I think NCT is really a trick...
This way they resolve their own cognitive dissonance, get around defending the old testament, and only have to defend the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Absolutely agree. This is why I incurred his wrath and was labeled ignorant. I went against the party line and stepped into logic.

The New Covenant idea was one I played with for a while during my deconversion.

It worked for a while until the very concept of god was logically challenged.

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24-04-2013, 10:11 PM
RE: OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
(24-04-2013 09:58 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(24-04-2013 08:37 PM)PersephoneK Wrote:  Absolutely agree. This is why I incurred his wrath and was labeled ignorant. I went against the party line and stepped into logic.

The New Covenant idea was one I played with for a while during my deconversion.

It worked for a while until the very concept of god was logically challenged.

Ditto.

"If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." ~Rene Descartes.
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24-04-2013, 10:53 PM
RE: OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
(24-04-2013 07:24 PM)PersephoneK Wrote:  I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Fucking witchcraft. Allow me to demonstrate by "fulfilling the Bible:"

I am 4.

From those 4, I can expand philosophically to explain all of scripture. Like how the elders were supposedly impressed by a twelve-year-old Jesus, or how the tribes recognized Mohammed... it's fucking witchcraft. Big Grin

Besides, Zero and the Buckster came up with the rational explanations. Thumbsup

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27-04-2013, 09:45 AM
RE: OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
One word or rather two I think best describes this: Red Herring.

People are inherently good and social creatures specially within our current society, thus believers need a justification for the presence of atrocities described in the bible.

It is only logical they would find some way to justify the unjustifiable. For if there was nothing that could set aside those rules of the old law, they would by default have to discard it if they wanted to live in a modern society, while not breaking the law of their god.

While even like this people still break rule after rule, the mere presence of an explanation is enough to divert attention away from yet another issue that theists have yet to address. It's a scheme we can observe over and over, confirmation bias combined with ignorance of conflicting ideas allow for superstition and religion to survive within our modern and rational culture.

As to how to solve this issues? People need to be led to the truth slowly and from within. We must continue to bring our solid and strong arguments to the table, so that doubt itself takes root within the minds of those defending this irrational ideas. Furthermore whenever we are presented with a red herring, we must recognize it immediately and insist and addressing the matter at hand. However from experience I remember this leading to the theist either giving up on the conversation or turning offensive. However both show better than anything else that the ground the theist defended was not solid to stand upon to begin with.

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28-04-2013, 11:33 PM
RE: OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
If the NT eliminates the validity of the OT, why does the Christian Community still teach that homosexuality is a sin? Why do they still publish the OT as part of the bible? Why are the stories of the OT still taught as moral lessons?
If the OT is still valid, then why is it ok to eat shellfish? If the OT is still valid, why aren't we keeping slaves, beating our children with sticks, and stoning our unfaithful daughters to death? Why is it ok to follow only part of god's word?

Religion, rather than acting as a symbol of truth or justice, merely acts as a symbol of human gullibility and stupidity. Surely no race of beings with any real intelligence would concoct such drivel.
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