OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
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28-04-2013, 11:59 PM
RE: OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
(24-04-2013 07:24 PM)PersephoneK Wrote:  Greetings,

I'm wondering what you all think about the issue of the New Testament and Jesus' sacrifice essentially erasing the entire Old Testament version of god. One thing that confounds me with Christians (and I used to think this way too!) is how they are able to rationalize everything horrible out of the OT by Jesus' sacrifice in the NT. They interpret what Jesus said in Matthew 5: 17-18 [“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”] to mean that Jesus fulfilled the law and therefore its all new again, but my position is that Jesus absolutely meant that he believes that the law (the OT) should be followed then and for all time thereafter. He was a Jew, and not trying to create a new religion.

What do you think about those who would say that you do not need the OT to have the OT? I personally believe that without the OT, you cannot have the NT, thus Christianity, and you cannot erase everything in the OT, which leads me to my conclusion that Yahwah is a bastard, and lucky for me I don't believe in him anymore.

The reason I ask is because a former Christian mentor of mine has been somewhat stalking me on Facebook and basically publicly called me ignorant, I presume because I take the approach that the OT is still a valid tool to criticize Christianity.

Thoughts? Ammo? Discuss!

Not completely related but one thing that I find interesting is the fact that God did not sacrifice anything. In order to sacrifice something you have to lose it permanently. I.E. I sacrificed my time ( which you can't gain back), I sacrificed my limbs ( which you can't gain back) or I sacrificed my life ( dido above). So how can God sacrifice something when he new that Jesus was just going to die and come back to heaven in the first place? No sacrifice, no story.

Just an outsider looking inn.
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30-04-2013, 10:37 PM
RE: OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
(28-04-2013 11:33 PM)Prometheus762 Wrote:  If the NT eliminates the validity of the OT, why does the Christian Community still teach that homosexuality is a sin? Why do they still publish the OT as part of the bible? Why are the stories of the OT still taught as moral lessons?
If the OT is still valid, then why is it ok to eat shellfish? If the OT is still valid, why aren't we keeping slaves, beating our children with sticks, and stoning our unfaithful daughters to death? Why is it ok to follow only part of god's word?
Excellent questions. The answers summarize why I am a Christian apostate.

"If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." ~Rene Descartes.
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02-05-2013, 10:26 AM
RE: OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
(24-04-2013 07:24 PM)PersephoneK Wrote:  The reason I ask is because a former Christian mentor of mine has been somewhat stalking me on Facebook and basically publicly called me ignorant, ...
That's an Ad Hominem Argument. I would call him on that.

"Stupid is forever but ignorance can be fixed." Ask him to fill in the gap in your knowledge, perhaps recommend some books or videos. That's assuming he really thinks you are ignorant. More than likely it's just name calling and we're back to Ad Hominem Argument.

Even if God and Jesus existed and I could live forever just by believing in them, I'm not so sure that eternal hellfire would be worse than having the omnipotent psychopath and his bastard kid looking over me for all eternity.
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02-05-2013, 10:51 AM
RE: OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
(24-04-2013 08:35 PM)PersephoneK Wrote:  That is probably certain

Laughat Ain't being spiteful, but that made me laugh.

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02-05-2013, 11:16 AM
RE: OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
(24-04-2013 07:39 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  I think NCT is really a trick. In the modern world the majority of the things in the bible are redicoulus. So in order to get in touch with the times, some christians thought it would be a good idea to pretend the old testament is just a story book that's semi-historical, and that the new testament is more accurate but also semi-historical.

This way they resolve their own cognitive dissonance, get around defending the old testament, and only have to defend the death and resurrection of Jesus.

I agree with this. They only seem to bring it up when they are trying to throw out obviously stupid parts of the OT, but then they don't usually have a problem quoting other parts of the OT when it suits them, so the whole NCT stuff seems to be a way to excuse their cherry picking and to make their god look a lot nicer by throwing out a lot of the wrath of god shit in the OT.

Quote:If the NT eliminates the validity of the OT, why does the Christian Community still teach that homosexuality is a sin? Why do they still publish the OT as part of the bible? Why are the stories of the OT still taught as moral lessons?
If the OT is still valid, then why is it ok to eat shellfish? If the OT is still valid, why aren't we keeping slaves, beating our children with sticks, and stoning our unfaithful daughters to death? Why is it ok to follow only part of god's word?
Exactly. That's why I think it's an excuse and a copout. The OT applies when they want it to apply and when they're cherry picking stuff against people they don't like, such as gays, but then when somebody asks about shellfish or mixed fabric, suddenly the entirely of the OT is invalid because Jesus. But if they really thought it was invalid, why even publish the OT in the bible? It's because they need excuses because the whole thing is so far removed from present-day reality, all the stuff about rape, keeping slaves, etc.


But as for the verse quoted in the OP, I always took it to mean that Jesus absolutely did NOT intend to erase the whole of the OT, and that all the laws in the OT applied and would continue to apply until the end of the world or whatever.
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02-05-2013, 06:55 PM
RE: OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
(28-04-2013 11:33 PM)Prometheus762 Wrote:  If the NT eliminates the validity of the OT, why does the Christian Community still teach that homosexuality is a sin? Why do they still publish the OT as part of the bible? Why are the stories of the OT still taught as moral lessons?
If the OT is still valid, then why is it ok to eat shellfish? If the OT is still valid, why aren't we keeping slaves, beating our children with sticks, and stoning our unfaithful daughters to death? Why is it ok to follow only part of god's word?

I agree. Its the height of hypocrisy, yet somehow they find a way to justify it within themselves.

"If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." ~Rene Descartes.
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02-05-2013, 06:58 PM
RE: OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
(02-05-2013 10:26 AM)f stop Wrote:  
(24-04-2013 07:24 PM)PersephoneK Wrote:  The reason I ask is because a former Christian mentor of mine has been somewhat stalking me on Facebook and basically publicly called me ignorant, ...
That's an Ad Hominem Argument. I would call him on that.

Would love to, but I'm frankly wimping out. Since then he has also called me a Facebook bully, mean, christian bashing, among other things. I've written a very long response I have yet to send to him. Not sure if I ever will. Keep in mind, this is the one person I've most dreaded telling of my apostasy for 10 years...

"If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things." ~Rene Descartes.
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04-05-2013, 01:12 AM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2013 01:21 AM by fstratzero.)
RE: OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
In regards to the OP's. Matthew 5: 17-18 verse.

Seeing as how he was king of the jews, in-validating all their laws would cause a large problem.

It seems more likely he was appealing to the OT to gain more jewish converts, and acceptance amongst the people.

It makes far less sense to say "Dear Jews your laws suck, and now that I'm here they are all gone. Who wants to be a follower now?"

*crowd throws eggs, and tomatoes at him*

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04-05-2013, 06:15 PM
RE: OT Invalidated by Jesus Arguments Against
(04-05-2013 01:12 AM)fstratzero Wrote:  In regards to the OP's. Matthew 5: 17-18 verse.

Seeing as how he was king of the jews, in-validating all their laws would cause a large problem.

It seems more likely he was appealing to the OT to gain more jewish converts, and acceptance amongst the people.

It makes far less sense to say "Dear Jews your laws suck, and now that I'm here they are all gone. Who wants to be a follower now?"

*crowd throws eggs, and tomatoes at him*

What I read in college what that they thought the Jesus character was based on many, many Jewish "messiahs" in that time period, and in any case, it was written long after his death by people who didn't know any of them. So considering no one probably said exactly what is quoted in Matthew, I don't see how it would cause a problem. If the author of that part of the NT wanted to throw out the OT, I mean, they could've done that because it was all hearsay and/or made up after the fact. They could have just rewrote the parts they liked.
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