Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
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19-01-2017, 03:30 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
Well, Szuchow, she did break the law. I happen to think she was justified in doing so, and that a civilian jury might have set her free, but she was tried under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, a provision that was based on a federal law. The real question is whether or not it's a dangerous precedent to expand the federal law to include the new definition of espionage, and whether or not her particular act warranted anything remotely similar to the punishment that was meted out.

Obama did not pardon her, by the way. He commuted the remainder of her sentence after six years served. Out of 35 years. No one has ever gotten a sentence anywhere like that for this type of action. When Manning first applied for executive relief, she was flat-out denied. They only did this after Manning re-petitioned, and admitted she should not have done what she did in the way she did it, and asked simply to have her sentence match the "norm" for this type of crime.

Six years is more than some people served for deliberately selling actual national/technological secrets to the Soviets and Chinese. (Or, more recently, the Israelis.) It's literally more than ten times the norm for the type of action committed by Private Manning.

More than any administration before, the Obama administration has been extraordinarily harsh on whistleblowers, and has expanded the Espionage Act's definition to include things that never before were covered. Many reporters and attorneys have stated that the Obama administration's new interpretations (and harsher use) of the Act amounted to a war against journalists.

Why so harsh? Well, when you're trying to cover something up, you need to be pretty harsh, to terrify people into silence. And the USA slips yet another rung on the moral ladder.

Commutation was a righteous and fair thing to do, at this point. Manning made a difficult choice to break the law when faced with a choice between her conscience and silent obedience (there were other factors involved, such as a neurological breakdown related to the problems from gender identity disorder and an obvious desire to be thrown out of the military). She served more than enough time by any reasonable measure. Her serious psychological issues were being exacerbated by the conditions of incarceration and the prospect of three and a half decades lost.

And Trump would not have given a shit. And Manning would have rotted away, serving a literally unprecedented sentence. Until she successfully killed herself, I suppose.

One can hate Manning all they like. They can consider her a scumbag and traitor. But there is nothing objectively fair about the way this was handled. There is nothing reasonable about the way the Democrats have expanded government's power under the Espionage Act and gone after people in a way we didn't even do during the height of the Cold War... and it's amazing to me to listen to Conservatives try to defend such government action. They should be the ones screaming "WHAT THE FUCK!?" and realizing the implications of what this particular administration has done with this law.

But instead of reasonable discussion, all I'm hearing is "Traitor to 'Murka! Burn that fag!" Rolleyes

It doesn't inspire me to try to reasonably discuss it. She's free and I'm content with that. *shrug*

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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19-01-2017, 03:51 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
(19-01-2017 03:30 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  They should be the ones screaming "WHAT THE FUCK!?" and realizing the implications of what this particular administration has done with this law.

Because they're only small-government freedom loving conservatives when they're not in control. I fully expect Trump and the Republican in congress to start massively racking up the national debt again, because someone else just spent 8 years trying to un-fuck it while they cried about 'small government'. Then when they're out of the White House again, and it's someone else's problem to clean up, they'll be crying about fiscal conservatism yet again (so long as it never touches the Pentagon).

Yeah, Obama having this level of unchecked power was frightening, because eventually he wouldn't be President anymore. Why did the Republicans not scream to high heaven about it? Because they wanted control over the secret courts and the army of murder-bots. Now they have it.

Reminds me of one of the best lines in Lord of War.

[Image: lord-of-war-4.jpg]

Every faction in Africa calls themselves by these noble names - Liberation this, Patriotic that, Democratic Republic of something-or-other... I guess they can't own up to what they usually are: the Federation of Worse Oppressors Than the Last Bunch of Oppressors. Often, the most barbaric atrocities occur when both combatants proclaim themselves Freedom Fighters


Who is it that fellates freedom, bald eagles, and the American-Way like they're going out of style?

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19-01-2017, 04:11 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
@Rocket Surgeon

She broke the law but from what I know it was right thing to do - law is not absolute. From my not exactly informed pov she does not warrant any punishment cause if people want to know what dirt military tries to hide then it is not exactly smart to punish people bringing said dirt into public view.

I dislike traitors - like for example colonel Kuklinski who spat on his oath of allegiance. But those who drag gov and military dirty laundry into light I respect as being good citizen isn't about obedience.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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19-01-2017, 04:33 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
(19-01-2017 04:11 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  @Rocket Surgeon

She broke the law but from what I know it was right thing to do - law is not absolute. From my not exactly informed pov she does not warrant any punishment cause if people want to know what dirt military tries to hide then it is not exactly smart to punish people bringing said dirt into public view.

I dislike traitors - like for example colonel Kuklinski who spat on his oath of allegiance. But those who drag gov and military dirty laundry into light I respect as being good citizen isn't about obedience.

I could not agree more.

That is why I called Manning a hero, despite the murky nature of how things were done.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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19-01-2017, 07:38 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
Do I think manning is a hero(ine)? Fuck no. The glorified gofer was supposed to be helping provide the best intel possible to the guys that were actually putting their physical and mental health on the line out there. Bad (read; negligent) intel is what got those civilians from the gun-cam footage that manning released killed. So, instead of doing his job, he got to snooping around for "gossip." Further risking the lives of his fellow soldiers and the civilians in the area.

That said, the clemency doesn't bother me too much. As has been pointed out previously, higher-ranking officers have done worse and gotten a slap on the wrist. If some of our finest officers do not set a better example for the troops, how can we expect better out of them?

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

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19-01-2017, 07:48 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
(18-01-2017 07:08 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(18-01-2017 01:56 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I think this is an excellent decision. I want people in the military to think about the moral ramifications of what they are doing and not just following orders and then hiding behind that as an excuse.

Yeah -- great idea ........

.....

And I guess you'll protest everything your Commanding Officer orders -- because YOU didn't vote for him!!!!


THAT's how all military units work....

Facepalm


Do us all a favor......


SIGN UP!!!!!!


They NEED geniuses like YOU!!!!!!!

What the fuck is your problem?

Soldiers "just following orders" is how you get shit like internment camps and war crimes. Excuse me for wanting our military held to a higher moral and ethical standard than savage barbarism.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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19-01-2017, 08:00 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
(19-01-2017 07:48 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(18-01-2017 07:08 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Yeah -- great idea ........

.....

And I guess you'll protest everything your Commanding Officer orders -- because YOU didn't vote for him!!!!


THAT's how all military units work....

Facepalm


Do us all a favor......


SIGN UP!!!!!!


They NEED geniuses like YOU!!!!!!!

What the fuck is your problem?

Soldiers "just following orders" is how you get shit like internment camps and war crimes. Excuse me for wanting our military held to a higher moral and ethical standard than savage barbarism.

My "problem" is cunts like you who know diddly shit about military, military operations, operational security --- assuming that the entire military structure is full of evil white men (probably because they have guns, and a fair number are NRA members) -- who all collude to oppress the brown people of the world.............

You're more than happy to throw the serviceman under the bus , to risk their lives, to get them killled, because it fits your agenda....

Go fuck yourself, you clueless cunt............

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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19-01-2017, 08:08 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
(19-01-2017 08:00 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(19-01-2017 07:48 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  What the fuck is your problem?

Soldiers "just following orders" is how you get shit like internment camps and war crimes. Excuse me for wanting our military held to a higher moral and ethical standard than savage barbarism.

My "problem" is cunts like you who know diddly shit about military, military operations, operational security --- assuming that the entire military structure is full of evil white men (probably because they have guns, and a fair number are NRA members) -- who all collude to oppress the brown people of the world.............

You're more than happy to throw the serviceman under the bus , to risk their lives, to get them killled, because it fits your agenda....

Go fuck yourself, you clueless cunt............

Well, someone woke up on the "mega-cocksucker moron" side of the bed today.

You make an ignorant assumption that I don't know anything about the military. I have a sister (I believe she is now a captain) in the Army and my father retired as a Master Chief from the Navy. I grew up in a military family and if the Air Force had returned my calls, I'd have done ROTC in college. I have indeed looked into the military and I stand by my support of freeing Chelsea Manning as well as the reasons I gave. If you don't like it, I don't give a rat's ass. So, grab your shoulders firmly and yank really hard. This might help dislodge your head from your rectum.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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19-01-2017, 08:16 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
"You disagreed with me and gave a valid reason why. FUCK YOU! YOU'RE A CUNT!"
*FOAMING AT THE MOTHER FUCKING MOUTH*


Someone needs to chill out.

"NO FUCK YOU, CUNT. YOU DISAGREED WITH ME SO THAT MAKES YOU A CUNT BECAUSE OF REASONS AND YOU'RE IGNORANT BECAUSE YOU DISAGREED WITH ME. YOU CAN'T POSSIBLY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT ON THIS SUBJECT BECAUSE YOU DON'T HOLD THE EXACT SAME OPINION AS ME!"

Chill out there, bruh. You're going to burst a blood vessel.


(edit to add: This is how my mind works when I daydream)

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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19-01-2017, 09:27 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
I've seen a whole lot of invective being thrown about, and a horde of straw men erected and burned. Please read what I'm saying carefully, and don't just flame me, too. Manning disclosed tens of thousands of pieces of information, each of which was punishable by ten years in prison.

Anyone who has actually held a security clearance knows what the responsibilities are, and the penalties for disclosure. I might consider Manning as having a good reason, if the disclosures were directly related to war crimes.

There isn't much reason to presume that a civilian court would find differently from what the military court found. Notwithstanding the fact that there may have been some war crimes in that stack, some of the information reveals operational security measures. Giving our adversaries this information may allow them to anticipate our actions and compromise our military personnel, and further, some may be used by adversaries to connect the dots and expose informants that we rely on. Our adversaries may then use that information to kill those adversaries and their families.
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