Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
19-01-2017, 09:28 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
Oh boy -- you must know all about it -- because you KNEW SOMEBODY WHO SERVED!!!!!!!


This is akin to knowing all about childbirth - because you know somebody who was born.....


Ignorant twat.....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2017, 09:31 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
(19-01-2017 09:28 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Oh boy -- you must know all about it -- because you KNEW SOMEBODY WHO SERVED!!!!!!!


This is akin to knowing all about childbirth - because you know somebody who was born.....


Ignorant twat.....

That all you have? Insults? I don't know what stick you have up your ass, but people are allowed to have their own opinions. And while you may not consider what I know about the military to be valid, I don't particularly care. Your argument remains "you aren't in the military so you don't know!" Which is akin to "you aren't a christian so you don't know!" Take your tired ass arguments and insults and shove them up your own ass.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2017, 09:34 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
(19-01-2017 09:27 AM)Fireball Wrote:  I've seen a whole lot of invective being thrown about, and a horde of straw men erected and burned. Please read what I'm saying carefully, and don't just flame me, too. Manning disclosed tens of thousands of pieces of information, each of which was punishable by ten years in prison.

Anyone who has actually held a security clearance knows what the responsibilities are, and the penalties for disclosure. I might consider Manning as having a good reason, if the disclosures were directly related to war crimes.

There isn't much reason to presume that a civilian court would find differently from what the military court found. Notwithstanding the fact that there may have been some war crimes in that stack, some of the information reveals operational security measures. Giving our adversaries this information may allow them to anticipate our actions and compromise our military personnel, and further, some may be used by adversaries to connect the dots and expose informants that we rely on. Our adversaries may then use that information to kill those adversaries and their families.

Which is why I'd say it was valid that she was sentenced to jail time. But being given 35 years when part of the reason for the release was to expose the illegal activity that was being covered up, was excessive. If the next president were sane, I'd have imagined Obama wouldn't have commuted her sentence under the expectation that the next president might have commuted it near the end of their term. But Donald is fucking crazy and stupid.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2017, 10:24 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
This isn't a black and white issue and I see valid arguments on both sides. It's complicated without an easy solution.

In an ideal world, it's a bad idea to have everyone in the military able to make independent decisions. There are good reasons for a chain of command and for following it and enforcing it. It ensures consistency and order and makes sure that only those with the highest levels of knowledge about any given situation are the ones making decisions.

On the other hand, when individual soldiers are asked to do something that they know or at least believe to be morally wrong, it isn't right to expect them to merely follow orders against their conscience. In fact, doing so can lead to extremes such as what happened in Nazi Germany. For that reason, it is tempting to praise those who have the "courage" to speak out and become whistleblowers in such situations.

However, if we permit this to happen, we will probably start seeing it more and more frequently because there won't be a reason for anyone to hold back. This would break the chain of command, could cause as least some disorder in the military, and could weaken the military. Now it's easy to say, so what? If there are immoral or unethical practices going on, they should be exposed. And I would agree. But the problem is something may appear to be bad when in fact the person perceiving it that way simply doesn't have all the information that explains why in fact it's not bad at all.

This is why the proper action is for these soldiers to report to their superiors rather than going public. Now I realize that this isn't perfect either because the superiors could be part of the problem. I never personally served in the military so I don't know what the alternatives are besides reporting to a superior officer or if there are any at all. But, if there aren't, then some need to be created even if it means allowing any soldier the means to speak directly to the President to report these things (although I'm not sure how practical that would be given the President's limited available time). Granted, even the President could be part of the problem so maybe they should also be allowed to report to Supreme Court Justices in that case, for example.

I certainly don't have all the answers, but there has to be better alternatives than what we have now. Maybe today whistleblowing only gets some General or some politician rightly into trouble, but maybe tomorrow it puts innocent lives of military personnel or diplomats abroad on the line because of the type of information that is publicized.

About Chelsea Manning I have mixed feelings. I think her sentence was too stiff and serving over 6 years to date is already a long time. She served time because her action was found to be wrong, as I believe it should have been, and maybe it's enough time at this point. However, I also don't like the message it sends that she was sentenced for much longer, but then we decided to go easier. Her sentence had already included the possibility of parole at 8 years - far short of the 35 year sentence - so what's the big deal with waiting until then? This fits right in with our wimpy criminal justice system (I realize military is different) where we give 30 year sentences and then convicts are actually released in 10 years (just an example). This is a big part of what needs to be fixed. Let's make it 10 years when it's actually going to be 10 years, not 30. But if the sentence is 30 years, then 30 years should be served.

Another point to this though is that Chelsea Manning should never have been put into a position where whistleblowing was her only option. There should be better alternatives.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2017, 10:40 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
(19-01-2017 10:24 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Another point to this though is that Chelsea Manning should never have been put into a position where whistleblowing was her only option. There should be better alternatives.

There it is. There should be an INDEPENDENT place people can go when they run into something they think is screwing with the citizens. Should be open for military, police and government folks.

There, such things could be researched and escalated to appropriate channels, keeping the original whistle blower anonymous.

Also, people seem to be conflating traitors (selling info to adversaries) and whistleblowers (sounding an alarm to inform citizens). They are very different things.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dom's post
19-01-2017, 10:50 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
(19-01-2017 10:24 AM)Impulse Wrote:  This isn't a black and white issue and I see valid arguments on both sides. It's complicated without an easy solution.

I was gonna type up a response that could best be defined as way too long and then thought better of it, but this pretty much sums it up :/

Deception is one of those things that society will never like but can't survive without. And the farther up the ladder you go, the more true this becomes.

'Murican Canadian
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like yakherder's post
19-01-2017, 10:54 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
(19-01-2017 10:40 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(19-01-2017 10:24 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Another point to this though is that Chelsea Manning should never have been put into a position where whistleblowing was her only option. There should be better alternatives.

There it is. There should be an INDEPENDENT place people can go when they run into something they think is screwing with the citizens. Should be open for military, police and government folks.

There, such things could be researched and escalated to appropriate channels, keeping the original whistle blower anonymous.

Also, people seem to be conflating traitors (selling info to adversaries) and whistleblowers (sounding an alarm to inform citizens). They are very different things.

There are similar systems in place for things like sexual assault. The problem with classified material is that it can only be discussed with people who hold both a suitable clearance and a need to know, and that need to know shouldn't be stretched any farther than it absolutely has to be.

In the Battle of Dieppe, thousands of people died because of a single captured radioman. I'm not trying to tie that directly with Manning, but more with the concept of compartmented information.

'Murican Canadian
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2017, 10:57 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
(19-01-2017 08:00 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(19-01-2017 07:48 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  What the fuck is your problem?

Soldiers "just following orders" is how you get shit like internment camps and war crimes. Excuse me for wanting our military held to a higher moral and ethical standard than savage barbarism.

My "problem" is cunts like you who know diddly shit about military, military operations, operational security --- assuming that the entire military structure is full of evil white men (probably because they have guns, and a fair number are NRA members) -- who all collude to oppress the brown people of the world.............

You're more than happy to throw the serviceman under the bus , to risk their lives, to get them killled, because it fits your agenda....

Go fuck yourself, you clueless cunt............

Jewsus fucking Cryheist, lay off the period key.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
"Anti-environmentalism is like standing in front of a forest and going 'quick kill them they're coming right for us!'" - Jake Farr-Wharton, The Imaginary Friend Show.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Free Thought's post
19-01-2017, 11:05 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
(19-01-2017 10:54 AM)yakherder Wrote:  
(19-01-2017 10:40 AM)Dom Wrote:  There it is. There should be an INDEPENDENT place people can go when they run into something they think is screwing with the citizens. Should be open for military, police and government folks.

There, such things could be researched and escalated to appropriate channels, keeping the original whistle blower anonymous.

Also, people seem to be conflating traitors (selling info to adversaries) and whistleblowers (sounding an alarm to inform citizens). They are very different things.

There are similar systems in place for things like sexual assault. The problem with classified material is that it can only be discussed with people who hold both a suitable clearance and a need to know, and that need to know shouldn't be stretched any farther than it absolutely has to be.

In the Battle of Dieppe, thousands of people died because of a single captured radioman. I'm not trying to tie that directly with Manning, but more with the concept of compartmented information.

Obviously this group would need to have the highest clearance as well as being connected to other agencies to be able to investigate and escalate the issue.

Everyone would be better off if whistleblowers had a way to try to fix something they see as a grave issue without going public.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-01-2017, 11:07 AM
RE: Obama Frees Chelsea Manning
(19-01-2017 10:40 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(19-01-2017 10:24 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Another point to this though is that Chelsea Manning should never have been put into a position where whistleblowing was her only option. There should be better alternatives.

There it is. There should be an INDEPENDENT place people can go when they run into something they think is screwing with the citizens. Should be open for military, police and government folks.

There, such things could be researched and escalated to appropriate channels, keeping the original whistle blower anonymous.

Also, people seem to be conflating traitors (selling info to adversaries) and whistleblowers (sounding an alarm to inform citizens). They are very different things.

They have established law for military whistleblowers. The Military Whistleblower Protection Act. The problem is Manning decided not to alert his congressman (or any congressperson) to the problem, instead giving 750,000 documents (most not pertaining to the crimes he was alleging) to a foreign entity.

The military has protocols in place for situations like this. Manning decided to bypass all of them. He singlehandedly oversaw one of the largest security breaches in our history. That is the reason for the long prison sentence.

Bradley Manning is scum of the first order. While a few of the documents he released might have pointed to wrongdoing, violating federal law to get the information out there, as well as disseminating further non related classified intel, was highly illegal and dangerous.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
[Image: 25397spaceballs.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: