Obama being flamed for Egypt. Why?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
15-08-2013, 09:22 PM
RE: Obama being flamed for Egypt. Why?
(15-08-2013 09:05 PM)Likos02 Wrote:  Same shit, different day. All the righties are convinced the dude is the anti-christ, while all the lefties are convinced he's the best thing since sliced bread.

I'll admit there's been some questionable acts, but he has (so far) been nowhere near as bad as Bush.

I personally think that this entire shit is stupid...playing the blame game because "oh those stupid libbies" or "Oh those stupid Teabaggers".

Just get over it, stop arguing and fix the fucking country...it's not that hard.

We have become so involved in the game of politics that we seem to have forgotten WHY it is played. Its like the adversarial system is taken to mean that they must be against each other ALL the time.

"Your mind is twice a valuable as your body. And your ears are twice as valuable as your mouth. People will pay you based on which you use." - A very smart old lawyer
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes PatThePoltergeist's post
15-08-2013, 11:42 PM
RE: Obama being flamed for Egypt. Why?
(15-08-2013 04:39 PM)Houndentenor Wrote:  I always interpreted the Nobel Peace prize as a way to smack the Bush administration. Obama didn't ask for the prize so I don't know how he gets blamed for anything based on that.

As for the rest, those are valid points. It's so rare to hear actual criticism of the Obama administration these days. The right seems to have gone off the deep end makes crazy things up most of the time. But these are real things. I don't think any other administration would have done things much differently. We have a lot less influence on other countries than we like to admit.

What would you like to see the administration do in response the the situation in Egypt?

Look up Obama's acceptance speech for that Nobel prize. His speech was about the moral justification for war. In part, I think he had a sense of humor in delivering such an acceptance speech for the Nobel Peace Prize and questioned whether he really did anything to deserve it. In part, I think he understood some of the motivation for his prize was a backhanded compliment to him in order to criticize Bush, and he didn't want to look like he was endorsing that view on the international stage. Here's a snippet of his speech:
But the world must remember that it was not simply international institutions -- not just treaties and declarations -- that brought stability to a post-World War II world. Whatever mistakes we have made, the plain fact is this: The United States of America has helped underwrite global security for more than six decades with the blood of our citizens and the strength of our arms. The service and sacrifice of our men and women in uniform has promoted peace and prosperity from Germany to Korea, and enabled democracy to take hold in places like the Balkans. We have borne this burden not because we seek to impose our will. We have done so out of enlightened self-interest -- because we seek a better future for our children and grandchildren, and we believe that their lives will be better if others' children and grandchildren can live in freedom and prosperity.

So yes, the instruments of war do have a role to play in preserving the peace. And yet this truth must coexist with another -- that no matter how justified, war promises human tragedy. The soldier's courage and sacrifice is full of glory, expressing devotion to country, to cause, to comrades in arms. But war itself is never glorious, and we must never trumpet it as such.


In addressing the OP, PatThePoltergeist , some of the criticisms are just carping from the other side nomatter what Obama did or was responsible for.

Many question the policy publicly calling for Mubarak to step down--it damaged our relationship with the Saudis. Some question whether we should care about that, but we have no actual friends in the region (perhaps Israel), and only a few alliances of convenience. Calling on Mubarak to leave office endangered the two most important alliances of convenience (Egypt and Saudi Arabia) and scared the friendliest of those convenient allies (Jordon). On the other hand, Obama stood mute when there was an uprising in Iran over questionable election results.

Kicking Mubarak to the curb left a power vacuum that would only be filled by the Muslim Brotherhood. The secular forces that rallied to kick Mubarak from power were not organized politically like the Muslim Brotherhood was. Once the Brotherhood got into power, they strong-armed a constitution into force through questionable means and over the objections of the opposition. Obama was left with the uncomfortable position where he had to embrace the Brotherhood after their rather undemocratic jamming of a pro-Islam constitution down the throats of the opposition.


These are the criticisms. Of course, the real question for those who pose this criticism is, what exactly could or should Obama have done? He could have spoken out in favor of the protestors and their demands, and then stopped short of calling for Mubarak's removal. The situation in Egypt may have been one of those situations where doing nothing was the best course of action. Hindsight is 20/20 though, and there is no way to know that a non-intervention response to the Mubarak protests would have put us in any better position.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-08-2013, 07:45 AM
RE: Obama being flamed for Egypt. Why?
(14-08-2013 11:24 PM)PatThePoltergeist Wrote:  It seems that when things are going decent for most of the world, we Americans like to criticize our government for being too forward with our foreign policy. Trying to police the world and such. But when the shit really and legitimately hits the fan somewhere, we are outraged that our leaders didn't do more to thwart the situation.

We go from professing to not care what other countries do. And then we complain when they fail. And it is not because the trouble over there could hurt us. Oh no! Its because democracy has failed. Because everyone knows that an idiot that was voted upon is better than one that wasn't. That is the idea around my area anyway.

Syria and Egypt are both being talked about constantly around here, and everybody is blaming Obama for not doing anything about them. I am no fan of the guy, but it seems that folks are more concerned with his perceived failure than what is actually going on. I get so tired of people immediately blaming our leaders for everything that happens. They may be worthy of contempt, but they are certainly not responsible for every evil in the world IMO.

The problem with US foreign policy is openly admitted and accepted. We do what is in the self-interest of people in control of our system. Politicians will say that we will do what is in the (strategic) interest of the US, but everyone knows who is in control of the system and decision making.

Making irrational decisions, will lead to horrible results. You have to make decisions rationally, i.e., based on what is moral. Even then, if it leads to war and total destruction, you can rest on the fact that you made a decision based on what was moral and not what you thought would work better for you.

You can't blame Obama. He isn't some kind of despotic autocrat, by himself providing support, money and arms, to negative foreign elements, and making terrible foreign policy decisions, all alone. The systems is more complicated than that; more people play a role. The American people even play a role-- both groups that support Obama and oppose him.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-08-2013, 08:48 AM
RE: Obama being flamed for Egypt. Why?
I can't speak for others, but I am always critical of foreign interventionism, regardless of who is in office. I still don't want us to get involved with Egypt.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-08-2013, 09:00 AM
RE: Obama being flamed for Egypt. Why?
(16-08-2013 08:48 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  ... I am always critical of foreign interventionism, regardless of who is in office.

[godwin]But what about WWII?[/godwin]

Yes

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-08-2013, 09:13 AM
RE: Obama being flamed for Egypt. Why?
(16-08-2013 09:00 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(16-08-2013 08:48 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  ... I am always critical of foreign interventionism, regardless of who is in office.

[godwin]But what about WWII?[/godwin]

Yes

I said critical of interventionism. I didn't say it was never appropriate.

Also, in WWII we had war declared on us. That isn't interventionism is it? Last I checked Egypt hadn't made a declaration of war on us.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-08-2013, 09:17 AM
RE: Obama being flamed for Egypt. Why?
(16-08-2013 09:13 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  I said critical of interventionism. I didn't say it was never appropriate.

A healthy attitude, silly jokes aside.

(16-08-2013 09:13 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Also, in WWII we had war declared on us. That isn't interventionism is it?

"Uninvolved" is about the last way to characterize American foreign policy 1939-1941...

(16-08-2013 09:13 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Last I checked Egypt hadn't made a declaration of war on us.

Pfft. Get with the times! Nobody actually declares war these days, they just fight them. Rolleyes

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-08-2013, 09:30 AM
RE: Obama being flamed for Egypt. Why?
(16-08-2013 09:17 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Pfft. Get with the times! Nobody actually declares war these days, they just fight them. Rolleyes

I read this, and almost immediately had an uneasy thought about the concept of a WWIII.

Will it happen, or is it already happening undeclared?

"It's a most distressing affliction to have a sentimental heart and a skeptical mind.”
― نجيب محفوظ, Sugar Street
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-08-2013, 09:50 AM
RE: Obama being flamed for Egypt. Why?
(16-08-2013 09:17 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(16-08-2013 09:13 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  I said critical of interventionism. I didn't say it was never appropriate.

A healthy attitude, silly jokes aside.

(16-08-2013 09:13 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Also, in WWII we had war declared on us. That isn't interventionism is it?

"Uninvolved" is about the last way to characterize American foreign policy 1939-1941...

(16-08-2013 09:13 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Last I checked Egypt hadn't made a declaration of war on us.

Pfft. Get with the times! Nobody actually declares war these days, they just fight them. Rolleyes

That's what you say now. Watch out Canada! The end of your sovereignty draws near!

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dark Light's post
16-08-2013, 10:06 AM
RE: Obama being flamed for Egypt. Why?
(16-08-2013 09:50 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(16-08-2013 09:17 AM)cjlr Wrote:  A healthy attitude, silly jokes aside.


"Uninvolved" is about the last way to characterize American foreign policy 1939-1941...


Pfft. Get with the times! Nobody actually declares war these days, they just fight them. Rolleyes

That's what you say now. Watch out Canada! The end of your sovereignty draws near!

Ha! We have completely infiltrated your silly society, it will collapse when we choose.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread: Author Replies: Views: Last Post
  hows President Hussein Obama doin? Wicked Clown 32 389 16-08-2014 01:46 PM
Last Post: Res Publica
Thumbs Up Obama Wins "Lie of the Year" Award Can_of_Beans 24 688 19-12-2013 03:58 PM
Last Post: Chas
  Why did Jews have race fueled hatred for Obama I and I 5 280 28-07-2013 06:06 PM
Last Post: earmuffs
  They're applauding Obama at the memorial ceremony for the Boston tragedy TrainWreck 26 1,017 24-04-2013 05:02 PM
Last Post: bbeljefe
  How many people you know brought up Obama after the Boston bombing? Buddy Christ 14 690 16-04-2013 08:18 PM
Last Post: Revenant77x
  Biden: Obama May Use ‘Executive Orders’ to Crack Down on Guns Dark Light 24 974 10-01-2013 10:47 PM
Last Post: TheBlackKnight
  Non-Religious Voters Won Obama's Reelection Science Believer 13 706 14-12-2012 11:41 AM
Last Post: Chas
Forum Jump: