Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
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03-12-2013, 06:59 PM (This post was last modified: 03-12-2013 07:37 PM by frankksj.)
Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
When I was previously arguing that it's more logical to use health insurance to manage the risk of unexpected costly treatment, and to pay for routine care oneself, I suggested it logically introduced a moral hazard to have insurance companies pay for everything, and some people would take worse care of themselves than if they were on the hook themselves.

Naturally the Obamacare defenders disputed this. Today's CNN article shows the empirical data actually supports my “wild claim”:
“many men, at the time they obtained Medicare [which they now do under Obamacare], started behaving badly... Among those who didn't visit the doctor after getting insurance, the effect was dramatic: Their overall physical activity dropped by 40%; they were 16% more likely to smoke cigarettes and 32% more likely to drink alcohol.”

Naturally, there are positive effects from having comprehensive care, like “uninsured adults are more likely to be diagnosed at an advanced stage of cancer, more likely to die from a heart attack and less likely to recover from a serious injury.”

Now IF the Obamacare-defenders were willing to open their mind and acknowledge the moral hazard and the negative effects, then maybe they could have come up with a better plan that retained the positive effects without all the negative ones. Of course, that won't happen since they're too dogmatic to admit the negative effects even exist, and thus they do nothing to mitigate them.
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03-12-2013, 07:12 PM (This post was last modified: 03-12-2013 07:18 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
Ummmm ... yeah. I'm pretty sure Medicare is still restricted to those 65 and older. The ACA didn't change that. But I like the image of old men behaving badly. Big Grin

EDIT: Oops, and "and younger people with disabilities, people with end stage renal disease (Medicare.gov, 2012) and persons with Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis."





I swear I recognize DLJ and Chas and WoofMeister in there.

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03-12-2013, 07:13 PM
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
It is a pretty wild claim and on the surface just looks like a continuance of your anti Obama rhetoric.
Fix the link to your evidence ?

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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03-12-2013, 07:18 PM
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
The mechanism described by Gupta has not so much to do with the question whether insurance should pay for routine care.
It suggests, that people live healthier when they don't have health care, because they are aware of the risks.
The routine care part of the health insurance is not risk-reducing. It is the catastrophic coverage that reduces risks, and
increase incentive to live unhealthier. SO perhaps health insurance should cover ONLY routine care.....Smile
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03-12-2013, 07:28 PM
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
(03-12-2013 06:59 PM)frankksj Wrote:  When I was previously arguing that it's more logical to use health insurance to manage the risk of unexpected costly treatment, and to pay for routine care oneself, I suggested it logically introduced a moral hazard to have insurance companies pay for everything, and some people would take worse care of themselves than if they were on the hook themselves.

Naturally the Obamacare defenders disputed this. Today's [url=http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/02/opinion/gupta-health-optimize/index.html?hpt=hp_bn7
]CNN article[/url] shows the empirical data actually supports my “wild claim”:
“many men, at the time they obtained Medicare [which they now do under Obamacare], started behaving badly... Among those who didn't visit the doctor after getting insurance, the effect was dramatic: Their overall physical activity dropped by 40%; they were 16% more likely to smoke cigarettes and 32% more likely to drink alcohol.”

Naturally, there are positive effects from having comprehensive care, like “uninsured adults are more likely to be diagnosed at an advanced stage of cancer, more likely to die from a heart attack and less likely to recover from a serious injury.”

Now IF the Obamacare-defenders were willing to open their mind and acknowledge the moral hazard and the negative effects, then maybe they could have come up with a better plan that retained the positive effects without all the negative ones. Of course, that won't happen since they're too dogmatic to admit the negative effects even exist, and thus they do nothing to mitigate them.

An opinion piece? You use an opinion piece as evidence of something?

You are silly.

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03-12-2013, 07:31 PM
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
Is the OP naturally that stupid or did he have to take a test of some kind?

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03-12-2013, 07:35 PM
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
(03-12-2013 07:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-12-2013 06:59 PM)frankksj Wrote:  When I was previously arguing that it's more logical to use health insurance to manage the risk of unexpected costly treatment, and to pay for routine care oneself, I suggested it logically introduced a moral hazard to have insurance companies pay for everything, and some people would take worse care of themselves than if they were on the hook themselves.

Naturally the Obamacare defenders disputed this. Today's [url=http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/02/opinion/gupta-health-optimize/index.html?hpt=hp_bn7
]CNN article[/url] shows the empirical data actually supports my “wild claim”:
“many men, at the time they obtained Medicare [which they now do under Obamacare], started behaving badly... Among those who didn't visit the doctor after getting insurance, the effect was dramatic: Their overall physical activity dropped by 40%; they were 16% more likely to smoke cigarettes and 32% more likely to drink alcohol.”

Naturally, there are positive effects from having comprehensive care, like “uninsured adults are more likely to be diagnosed at an advanced stage of cancer, more likely to die from a heart attack and less likely to recover from a serious injury.”

Now IF the Obamacare-defenders were willing to open their mind and acknowledge the moral hazard and the negative effects, then maybe they could have come up with a better plan that retained the positive effects without all the negative ones. Of course, that won't happen since they're too dogmatic to admit the negative effects even exist, and thus they do nothing to mitigate them.

An opinion piece? You use an opinion piece as evidence of something?

You are silly.

Girly go lift big rocks off the ground now. "Don't do it Girly, you got health insurance. Drink and smoke instead." ... Consider "Okay. Girly done drank and smoked. Now I'm gonna go lift bigass rocks off the ground." Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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03-12-2013, 07:42 PM
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
" They found having insurance did not improve measures of blood pressure, cholesterol or how well diabetics controlled their blood sugar. Furthermore, the 10-year risk of having a heart attack didn't change in those who had Medicaid. It wasn't at all what the proponents of universal access to health insurance hoped they would see."

Why would any rational person expect to see a change ?
Sounds like fox news logic.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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03-12-2013, 07:43 PM
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
(03-12-2013 06:59 PM)frankksj Wrote:  When I was previously arguing that it's more logical to use health insurance to manage the risk of unexpected costly treatment, and to pay for routine care oneself

Ok, i've avoided like the 50 different times you've brought this up because, well, because who has the time to read these treatise you write on every topic? I sure don't. At least, not if I want to keep my job. But, having now read this, and similar comments in your various Obamacare rants, I wanted to make two quick points.

First, I 100% agree with you that having health insurers in the middle of every health care transaction is ridiculous and defeats the whole purpose of insurance. I think this "moral hazard" argument you are making here is beyond ridiculous, but I do think the current system is the single biggest driver of cost increases on insurance. But, that's a whole other topic.

Second - and this is the important part so pay attention - the system you keep complaining about has fuck all to do with Obamacare. The ACA had zero impact on this system. It changed nothing with regard to how insurance basically works. It certainly doesn't improve the system, but you act like it is the cause, as if before Obama there was some kind of insurance wonderland out there. Newsflash - there wasn't.

You want to blame a law and a President for our current fiasco, feel free. The correct law to blame is The Health Maintenance Organization Act of 1973 and the correct President is Richard M. Nixon. I'd love to get rid of the HMO/managed health care system we have but that ship has long since sailed. Not in 2010 like you seem to want to believe but 37 years earlier in 1973.

Oh, one other things - Obamacare is based on an idea from a Conservative think tank called the Heritage Foundation. This was the Republican answer to the Clinton Health Care proposal in the 90s (which would truley have been a disaster) and the Republicans loved it. The center piece of the legislation was --- get this -- the individual mandate! Republians loved it, Democrats hated it. Oh, how the tables have turned.

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03-12-2013, 07:45 PM
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
Frankie, buddy... I like ya... but this is starting to feel like the same conversation you've started several times before. Maybe take a break from the anti-Obama rants and explore another topic for a while?

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it- not even if I have said it- unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Buddha
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