Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
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04-12-2013, 09:23 AM
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
(04-12-2013 12:12 AM)sporehux Wrote:  Http://esciencenews.com/articles/2013/11....behaviors

Ok, sporehox, you win. My hat off to you. Yes, that was a credible study, and disputed the conventional wisdom among health economists that people with health insurance would be more likely to engage in risky behaviors. Thank you for that research. I'm not sure why the National Bureau of Economic Research, which is a very credible organization, with 24 Nobel laureates as researchers, and with funding from the US Gov't, reached the opposite conclusion. However, you DID actually dispute my OP with facts. I'll back off this point since, with conflicting research, it is unproven at best.

Contrast your response, though, to the 4 pages of posts from others on TTA. In my OP I suggested health insurance makes people more likely to assume this risk. This is accepted by many health economists, and a US Gov't funded research through a respected institution, presented a peer reviewed study validating the point.

Yet, for 4 pages, the comments consist of saying I'm just stupid, or that the point isn't valid, or that I'm just bashing Obamacare, or posting links to articles that had nothing to do with the subject and accusing me of ignoring them... For 4 pages a bunch of Obamacare-defenders chose to dismiss the issue with their usual vitriol.

Thus, I think it still proves the overarching issue that these self-proclaimed Messiah's shouldn't be allowed to force others to do things against their will, particularly when these Messiah's behave like this, refusing to even consider that their policies might be doing harm, and ignoring all the evidence.

P.S. Bucky, I'm still waiting for you to show me how that NYT article on Sweden contradicts anything that I said. <crickets>
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04-12-2013, 09:35 AM
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
The weather here is supposed to turn to utter shit late tomorrow through the weekend...how can I blame Obama? Or more specifically Obamacare? Consider

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
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04-12-2013, 09:41 AM
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
(04-12-2013 09:35 AM)Anjele Wrote:  The weather here is supposed to turn to utter shit late tomorrow through the weekend...how can I blame Obama? Or more specifically Obamacare? Consider

Probably because he's a secret Muslim and Jebus is mad at us for voting him into office and hence it into law. Drinking Beverage

Of course, it could just be the weather pattern in your area but the first cause makes much more sense...or something.

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
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04-12-2013, 09:43 AM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2013 10:22 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
The premise in the idiotic OP is that unhealthy behavoirs of THE GENERAL population will increase with the addition of many more insured. There is NO evidence for that. In fact, looking at a society which insures everyone, that (unsupported, pulled from biased ranting ass) assertion, is not supported.
How about some REAL facts about the uninsured ?
http://kff.org/uninsured/fact-sheet/key-...opulation/
Frankiej : please feel free to take your ranting shit elsewhere, if you don't like it that people are sick of your biased shit. The US healthcare system is NEVER going to work according to your asinine model. Clearly you don't work either in medicine or the insurance industry. Your ignorance of REALITY is astounding.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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04-12-2013, 09:43 AM
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
(03-12-2013 06:59 PM)frankksj Wrote:  When I was previously arguing that it's more logical to use health insurance to manage the risk of unexpected costly treatment, and to pay for routine care oneself, I suggested it logically introduced a moral hazard to have insurance companies pay for everything, and some people would take worse care of themselves than if they were on the hook themselves.

Naturally the Obamacare defenders disputed this. Today's CNN article shows the empirical data actually supports my “wild claim”:
“many men, at the time they obtained Medicare [which they now do under Obamacare], started behaving badly... Among those who didn't visit the doctor after getting insurance, the effect was dramatic: Their overall physical activity dropped by 40%; they were 16% more likely to smoke cigarettes and 32% more likely to drink alcohol.”

Naturally, there are positive effects from having comprehensive care, like “uninsured adults are more likely to be diagnosed at an advanced stage of cancer, more likely to die from a heart attack and less likely to recover from a serious injury.”

Now IF the Obamacare-defenders were willing to open their mind and acknowledge the moral hazard and the negative effects, then maybe they could have come up with a better plan that retained the positive effects without all the negative ones. Of course, that won't happen since they're too dogmatic to admit the negative effects even exist, and thus they do nothing to mitigate them.
Yes, Obamacare is crap, but the blame goes to the opposition. Obamacare isn't what was originally proposed. It's a highly modified version because it was all that could get passed due to the opposition - and even that barely passed and was more forced than agreed upon. Those who opposed the original version have only themselves to blame for what we now have.

I don't agree with your assessment that insurance is only for disasters particularly when it comes to health insurance. If you have a family with several people having a lot of medical needs, those copays can add up into the thousands per year. For a family making, say, $20,000 annually, that's huge! For them, those copays ARE a disaster.

As for people behaving badly once insured, do you also complain about people not wearing seat belts when they have auto insurance? How about risky distractions like changing the radio station or talking with passengers while driving? It's ridiculous to base decisions around the people that might engage in risky behavior.

National healthcare works perfectly well in other countries. The reason it isn't working here yet is because people don't like change and won't allow a plan that will really work. And, of course, the insurance companies will do everything to stand in the way as well, as they have already. If we could truly pass something like the plans that work in other countries, the savings from pro-active healthcare for currently uninsured individuals would far outweigh the costs from additional risky behavior.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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04-12-2013, 09:44 AM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2013 10:21 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
(04-12-2013 09:35 AM)Anjele Wrote:  The weather here is supposed to turn to utter shit late tomorrow through the weekend...how can I blame Obama? Or more specifically Obamacare? Consider

Never fear. He will find a way, and if he can't he'll make something up.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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04-12-2013, 09:57 AM
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
(04-12-2013 09:23 AM)frankksj Wrote:  
(04-12-2013 12:12 AM)sporehux Wrote:  Http://esciencenews.com/articles/2013/11....behaviors

Ok, sporehox, you win. My hat off to you. Yes, that was a credible study, and disputed the conventional wisdom among health economists that people with health insurance would be more likely to engage in risky behaviors. Thank you for that research. I'm not sure why the National Bureau of Economic Research, which is a very credible 't v

There are valid problems with the Affordable Care Act , you probable should refer to it as that, using the term Obamacare automatically raises heckles with many,
Its antagonistic and poisons your arguments.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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04-12-2013, 01:18 PM
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
I agree with everything you said, including the GOP is at least as much to blame. But I think this statement is wrong:

(04-12-2013 09:43 AM)Impulse Wrote:  If you have a family with several people having a lot of medical needs, those copays can add up into the thousands per year. For a family making, say, $20,000 annually, that's huge! For them, those copays ARE a disaster.

Set aside Obamacare's subsidies for the moment. I get the impression you're under the notion that there's some free lunch. You know that WHATEVER the insurance companies pay is marked up 25% (80/20) split. So, if a family has, over the course of the year, $2,000 in copays, if they switch a low-copay plan, they will (if everything is averaged out) end up paying $2,500 instead of $2,000. Pushing more of the expenses to the insurance company just makes it worse. The insurance company doesn't have a money printer to pay for those expenses. It's not charging the rich more. It's not taking it from shareholders. All it's doing is marking it up 25% and passing it on the policyholder. Sure, because it's a pool, ONE poor family may get a 'bargain' and only pay $2,000 in premiums and get $4,000 in care. But that's only because another poor family is paying $2,000 in premiums and only getting $1,000 in care. But averaged out, there is NO free lunch. If costs are high, shifting more costs to the insurance company will only make things worse. Remember, insurance premiums are not progressive. The poor family pays the same as the rich family.

Now Obamacare's subsidies for poor Americans do seem to have a redistributive effect since they're paid for through taxes. Thus it would appear to benefit poor families who get subsidies. However, it's more complicated than that because the US government doesn't pay for those subsidies by taxing the rich. It pays for them by issuing debt which is bought by the Fed by printing money. And this has been proven to have redistribute wealth from the poor to the rich. So, Obamacare gives the poor something they can easily identify (the subsidy), but it then takes it away again through an entirely invisible process that they don't know about. It's like I give you a bunch of money in a grand, public gesture, you thank me as being a great philanthropist, and then I secretly pick your pocket and take it all back and more. You'll still think I'm a good guy, and you'll blame some mysterious unseen thief.
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04-12-2013, 05:32 PM
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
(04-12-2013 01:18 PM)frankksj Wrote:  I agree with everything you said, including the GOP is at least as much to blame. But I think this statement is wrong:

(04-12-2013 09:43 AM)Impulse Wrote:  If you have a family with several people having a lot of medical needs, those copays can add up into the thousands per year. For a family making, say, $20,000 annually, that's huge! For them, those copays ARE a disaster.
You're right because what I said isn't what I was thinking when I wrote it. That's what I get for posting from work where my mind is in multiple directions. Tongue

The copays are the better alternative to not having insurance so I certainly didn't mean to complain about those, although I obviously did so. I was arguing against your idea that medical insurance should only cover disasters. What I meant to say is, without it, the $2,000 in copays would become at least 5 times that amount. In my example, those copays would be for frequent visits by multiple family members over minor issues so they wouldn't be covered under your concept of health insurance. Without the health insurance, their cost could be $10,000 or more.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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04-12-2013, 07:51 PM
RE: Obamacare makes people less likely to exercise, more likely to smoke and drink
(04-12-2013 05:32 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Without the health insurance, their cost could be $10,000 or more.

Please clarify. Are you talking about one specific family? Or families on average? If the average families medical bills run $10,000/year, then the average families' insurance premiums will be $12,500/year, and they'd be better off paying the medical bills themselves. If your expenses are "average", you're always better off without insurance, since insurance just adds 25% to the cost is and passes it on.

So the only way a family with $10,000/year medical bills is BETTER off with insurance is IF the average family's medical bills are much less. If the average family's medical bills are $5,000/year, and you happen to be an exception with $10,000/year in medical bills, then yes, you will be better off... But it will come at the expense of the average families, since they'll all be paying even more than the usual 25% markup to subsidize your unusually high costs. And it won't come at the expense of rich families, since insurance premiums are not progressive. In fact, historically, the rich never bothered with insurance anyway since they had the means to pay whatever expenses arose anyway.

Do you accept this? So when you're referring to one family being decimated with $10,000/year medical bills, and insurances saves them by reducing the copay to only $2,500/year, you DO understand that all the other families pay more to cover the difference, right? You accept that the insurance company isn't just printing money to pay for the bills, and it all comes out of premiums, right?
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