"Obamacare"
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27-01-2014, 01:48 PM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2014 02:04 PM by Cathym112.)
RE: "Obamacare"
True, government can play a *ROLE* in creating a monopoly, but it is not the *CAUSE* of the formed monopoly. You understand that there are multiple things that contribute, such as high entry costs, etc.

I never said that all regulation was good. Never once. Not even for a second. But this is not an all or nothing proposition, like you are proposing. Ie, because some regulation is bad, all regulation is bad.

Due to the high instances of fraud when there is no regulation, (i.e., circa Securities Act of 1933 and 1934) there has to be a balance. Now it is harder to be a broker dealer, yes. But not impossible.

There is an article in The Economist magazine that discusses how the diamond industry has become more competitive in recent years as a result of government intervention. But I guess all government involvement is bad, eh?

Again, in all of your scenarios and crackpot economics (which you don't even fully understand yourself), everything is created equal and therefore a perfect competitive market can exist.

Disagree with all the building codes you want....but India, which has very little regulation, has a lot more building collapse than areas of higher regulation. Now why is that? Could it possibly be because when no one is watching, things don't really get done as fairly and with such great quality as when someone is watching? Bottom line, people change their behavior even when they THINK someone is watching them. http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...er-person/

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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27-01-2014, 02:16 PM
RE: "Obamacare"
(27-01-2014 01:14 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  It doesn't. This was in response to your comment that there isn't an emotional aspect to your medical decisions.

There is an emotional aspect to most purchases. The question isn't whether or not emotion plays a role, but whether emotion plays such a role, as to completely undermine market dynamics.

That may be true in life and death situations, but why would it be in every other case? You yourself gave an example where you made a health choice that was not based on emotion. You chose to delay your purchase because you didn't trust the meds in Costa Rica, and that distrust was based on your knowledge that there are counterfeit meds out there. If you had felt it was life or death, don't you suppose you would have taken the meds then? This is the point I'm trying to make...consumers can still make rational choices in the purchase of health care, except possibly when it's life or death emergency care.

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27-01-2014, 02:23 PM
RE: "Obamacare"
(27-01-2014 01:20 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Correct. There is also lasik surgery you can get for $5,000. I will probably pay more money for the better doctor....since my eye sight is at stake.

If you were a rational consumer, you would try to find out which surgeons have the best outcomes, rather than simply looking for the highest priced one under the assumption he must be the best. Regardless, it really doesn't matter what you personally would do. the fact is, there are lasik surgeons who charge $2500, and people choose them. There is a market and it works to drive prices down.

Quote:You can get your boobs done for as little as $2,000. Or you can go to a top surgeon for $10,000. Its the same procedure...why would anyone choose the $10,000 procedure over the exact same thing at $2,000? Because people use emotions to determine who they want to be their doctor. I would go to the more reputable and higher demand doctor (and more expensive because he is a higher demand), to have a better chance of having better results.

You get what you pay for.

...and yet there are people choosing the $2000 boob job over the $10,000 boob job. Drinking Beverage

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27-01-2014, 02:43 PM
RE: "Obamacare"
(27-01-2014 01:20 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Correct. There is also lasik surgery you can get for $5,000. I will probably pay more money for the better doctor....since my eye sight is at stake.
(27-01-2014 02:23 PM)toadaly Wrote:  If you were a rational consumer, you would try to find out which surgeons have the best outcomes, rather than simply looking for the highest priced one under the assumption he must be the best. Regardless, it really doesn't matter what you personally would do. the fact is, there are lasik surgeons who charge $2500, and people choose them. There is a market and it works to drive prices down.

You will notice in my statement, I said the better doctor, not the highest price. However, the best doctors tend to be the highest prices since they are in a higher demand.

Further, you also seem to be missing my implied point that price affects a person's perceived value of the item. Price and consumer perceptions

Quote:You can get your boobs done for as little as $2,000. Or you can go to a top surgeon for $10,000. Its the same procedure...why would anyone choose the $10,000 procedure over the exact same thing at $2,000? Because people use emotions to determine who they want to be their doctor. I would go to the more reputable and higher demand doctor (and more expensive because he is a higher demand), to have a better chance of having better results.

You get what you pay for.
Quote:...and yet there are people choosing the $2000 boob job over the $10,000 boob job. Drinking Beverage

I never said there wasn't! If you are going to address my comments, why don't you do so on the actual premise of what I'm saying, not on your little sidebar. Oh, and here is a little bored coffee guy right back at you. Drinking Beverage

I'm not advocating for one market vs the other...what I'm merely pointing out is that it does not follow a simple aggregate supply/demand model. There are other factors, which is what Frank is completely forgetting.

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27-01-2014, 02:56 PM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2014 03:06 PM by Cathym112.)
RE: "Obamacare"
(27-01-2014 02:16 PM)toadaly Wrote:  There is an emotional aspect to most purchases. The question isn't whether or not emotion plays a role, but whether emotion plays such a role, as to completely undermine market dynamics.

really? most purchases? Sorry, but I see no emotional connection in 80% of all purchases people make. Ie, no emotion in the grocery store between the price of Upstate Farms Milk over Dairy Queen Milk., or Mr. Clean vs Pinesol vs generic.

I also see no emotional connection in choosing my phone company, my gas company, my cell phone, which company I engage to mow my lawn, whether I buy a Mac or a PC, buy a kenmore vs a GE, a Vizio TV vs a Sony, buying a car and the list goes on and on.

Preference does not qualify as an "emotional" aspect to the purchase.

Except in medical care, where there is actual value derived from your peace of mind and decreased anxiety over getting "the best" doctor, even in situations that are NOT life and death.

Even if the medical procedure is routine...like a checkup. Because the better doctors are - at least perceived - to have better expertise in any medical advice they give , or don't give.

This is due to the fact that when it comes to your body - there are no real "do-overs" What is done can not undone. You got a bad boob job? It can be fixed, but the scars from your first go round cannot be undone. Botched lasik? Your eye sight cannot be restored. Missed diagnosis on a routine checkup? Can't roll back the hands of time.

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27-01-2014, 03:05 PM
RE: "Obamacare"
(27-01-2014 02:43 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I never said there wasn't! If you are going to address my comments, why don't you do so on the actual premise of what I'm saying, not on your little sidebar. Oh, and here is a little bored coffee guy right back at you. Drinking Beverage

I'm not advocating for one market vs the other...what I'm merely pointing out is that it does not follow a simple aggregate supply/demand model. There are other factors, which is what Frank is completely forgetting.

If the point you're trying to make, is that emotions enter into health consumption choices, I certainly don't disagree. It seemed as though you were trying to make a claim substantially stronger than that.

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27-01-2014, 03:21 PM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2014 03:27 PM by Cathym112.)
RE: "Obamacare"
(27-01-2014 03:05 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(27-01-2014 02:43 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I never said there wasn't! If you are going to address my comments, why don't you do so on the actual premise of what I'm saying, not on your little sidebar. Oh, and here is a little bored coffee guy right back at you. Drinking Beverage

I'm not advocating for one market vs the other...what I'm merely pointing out is that it does not follow a simple aggregate supply/demand model. There are other factors, which is what Frank is completely forgetting.

If the point you're trying to make, is that emotions enter into health consumption choices, I certainly don't disagree. It seemed as though you were trying to make a claim substantially stronger than that.


I am making a claim substantially larger than that.

I am making a claim that the emotion involving your healthcare decisions is equal to or greater than the price when making those decisions. Even for non-life or death decisions (i.e., elastic demand), the overall price for healthcare does STILL not follow aggregate supply and demand models. For most non-urgent care, people tend to stick to the average price, rather than the cheapest or most expensive.


for example, a tubal ligation is a routine procedure for a lot of women, as well as a VS for men. Since pregnancy is the ultimate consequence for a woman or man who is completely finished having children, the quality of that surgeon is very important. Maybe it won't be as extreme in getting the best doctor money can buy, but most women or men would be hesitant about choosing the cheapest doctor....

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27-01-2014, 03:26 PM
RE: "Obamacare"
(27-01-2014 03:21 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Maybe it won't be as extreme in getting the best doctor money can buy, but most women or men would be hesitant about choosing the cheapest doctor....

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27-01-2014, 03:27 PM
RE: "Obamacare"
(27-01-2014 03:21 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  no, I am making a claim that the emotion involving your healthcare decisions is equal to or greater than the price when making those decisions.

I don't know how you could measure such a thing to support a claim like that. I've already given a real word non-hypothetical example of the market place working in lasik. One example is all that's needed to demonstrate that markets can work in health care, at least when we're not talking about emergency life and death situations.

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27-01-2014, 03:36 PM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2014 09:05 PM by Cathym112.)
RE: "Obamacare"
(27-01-2014 03:27 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(27-01-2014 03:21 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  no, I am making a claim that the emotion involving your healthcare decisions is equal to or greater than the price when making those decisions.

I don't know how you could measure such a thing to support a claim like that. I've already given a real word non-hypothetical example of the market place working in lasik. One example is all that's needed to demonstrate that markets can work in health care, at least when we're not talking about emergency life and death situations.

Correct. There ARE people who choose the lower cost Lasik. There are also Lasik procedures for $499 an eye.. This prices hardly represent quality lasik procedures. Less experienced, less qualified doctors will command cheaper prices. Hands down.

I'm not saying there aren't people who will buy it....there certainly are. But most people do not make these decision based on price alone. Their confidence in the doctor is greater than or equal to the price of that doctor in terms of decision making criterion.


Measure it in how people make their decisions. Narrow it down to Lasik if you want. There are message board after message board about LASIK. Here is just one I found. The OP is asking "where is the cheapest lasik" and the commenters are saying, "do you really want the cheapest, these are your eyes you are talking bout!"
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?...453AA0mpC0


And I'm not just talking out of my butt. I pay for my own private medical insurance, which means my deductibles and whatnot are through the roof. I got mauled by a dog, which tore all the ligaments in my hand, and I paid $35,000 out of my pocket by the time the surgery, hand therapy, and all my deductibles were made. My surgeon was out of my network...but this is my dominant HAND...and my livelihood. It wasn't a life/death decision. Price was not a factor...the best care was my deciding factor.

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