Objective Morality
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05-12-2013, 09:08 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(05-12-2013 09:03 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  ...
back to Arkham City. Thumbsup

Huh

OK, I'm not the sharpest tack in the box but I thought I was doing well to keep up with this thread.

HoC turns up and suddenly I'm lost.

Fucker!

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05-12-2013, 09:26 AM
RE: Objective Morality
Thanks for hanging in there with me, guys. So would this statement be correct?

According to moral realism, moral objectivity is subjective.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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05-12-2013, 09:28 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(05-12-2013 09:26 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  Thanks for hanging in there with me, guys. So would this statement be correct?

According to moral realism, moral objectivity is subjective.

Sadcryface Hobo

Also...

Fucker!

I'm outa here so my head won't explode.

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05-12-2013, 10:16 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(05-12-2013 09:26 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  Thanks for hanging in there with me, guys. So would this statement be correct?

According to moral realism, moral objectivity is subjective.

um.......

WTF?

[Image: desk_head_bang_gif_by_nino_umaka-d5xdbju.gif]

LOL

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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05-12-2013, 11:29 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 10:09 PM)Juv Wrote:  
(03-12-2013 09:53 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  Thanks for your response.
What is the difference between objective and absolute?
I personally can't stomach morality being entirely subjective for some of the connotations it entails.

Objective would imply that a moral code is somehow part of the universe - e.g. the way electromagnetism is, or light is.

I suppose absolute morality would be a moral code that is unchanging or unchangeable.

"Objective" is based on measurable or observable criteria, like say mandating the wearing of red shirts to school. Anything that goes against the mandate would be immoral, until, that is, the mandate changes. When it becomes yellow shirts, instead, you know it's not an absolute morality, but it's still objective. However when someone insists that the red shirt rule most always and forever remain and that anyone disobeying it to be immoral, it is an absolute.
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05-12-2013, 12:38 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(05-12-2013 07:25 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(05-12-2013 04:39 AM)Stevil Wrote:  ....
Is this true?

Kinda.

We can say that you are objectively immoral if and only if there is a consensus that harming another human / violating their rights is immoral.
What do you mean by consensus?
Majority, Unanimity, the ruling power?
Is this limited to my family, my town, my country, the world?

So if I were a Jew living in Hitler's Germany and the vast majority of Germans think Jews have negative value, does this mean that the moral thing for me to do would be to kill myself and my family/relatives, even though I myself might value Jews higher than any other race on the planet?
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05-12-2013, 01:06 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(05-12-2013 12:38 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(05-12-2013 07:25 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Kinda.

We can say that you are objectively immoral if and only if there is a consensus that harming another human / violating their rights is immoral.
What do you mean by consensus?
Majority, Unanimity, the ruling power?
Is this limited to my family, my town, my country, the world?

So if I were a Jew living in Hitler's Germany and the vast majority of Germans think Jews have negative value, does this mean that the moral thing for me to do would be to kill myself and my family/relatives, even though I myself might value Jews higher than any other race on the planet?

Dude, not everything has to be taken to the most extreme example you can come up with. Most of life is shades of grey.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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05-12-2013, 07:45 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(05-12-2013 11:29 AM)BeccaBoo Wrote:  
(03-12-2013 10:09 PM)Juv Wrote:  Objective would imply that a moral code is somehow part of the universe - e.g. the way electromagnetism is, or light is.

I suppose absolute morality would be a moral code that is unchanging or unchangeable.

"Objective" is based on measurable or observable criteria, like say mandating the wearing of red shirts to school. Anything that goes against the mandate would be immoral, until, that is, the mandate changes. When it becomes yellow shirts, instead, you know it's not an absolute morality, but it's still objective. However when someone insists that the red shirt rule most always and forever remain and that anyone disobeying it to be immoral, it is an absolute.

With that example, I'm guessing you are from Thailand, right?

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05-12-2013, 07:58 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(05-12-2013 12:38 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(05-12-2013 07:25 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Kinda.

We can say that you are objectively immoral if and only if there is a consensus that harming another human / violating their rights is immoral.
What do you mean by consensus?
Majority, Unanimity, the ruling power?
Is this limited to my family, my town, my country, the world?

So if I were a Jew living in Hitler's Germany and the vast majority of Germans think Jews have negative value, does this mean that the moral thing for me to do would be to kill myself and my family/relatives, even though I myself might value Jews higher than any other race on the planet?

And thus you highlight why there is no such thing as objective morality.

It only exists with a consensus... a framework (or axiology, in Chippy's language) that everyone signs up to.

This has obviously not happened yet but proposing a framework/axiology based of human neurology seems like a reasonable start ... if you are human ... if you are not human ... fuck you!

In the mean time, the governance systems we embrace provide a mechanism for balancing stakeholders' needs i.e. negotiating between their different subjective positions.

But from previous exchanges we've had, I know you know this and are pulling my chain.

... which is appreciated, btw.

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05-12-2013, 08:06 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(05-12-2013 08:53 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(05-12-2013 08:34 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  If you claim "Objective morality, therefore gawd-X", you have to not only prove why gawd-x and not any other result, AND you have to [i]precisely define objective morality AND prove your claim that it actually exists.

Yeah! And good luck with that.

Big Grin

Exactly.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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