Objective Morality
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03-12-2013, 10:13 PM (This post was last modified: 03-12-2013 10:17 PM by sporehux.)
RE: Objective Morality
You can define "objective" a few ways, A deep set subconscious moral choice could be defined as objective and absolute.
Where there is no conscious way to override it.

If i was being forced to kill some strangers kids you can say an objective moral / absolute moral would not allow me to do so.
and you could argue against that notion, both equally valid based on the person definition.
As if you add another factor of kill them or we will kill your children then some people will dissolve that moral, so it was only objective/absolute until challenged appropriately.
Therefore it could not have been absolute to begin with...... (im tired I think im typing nonsense.....zzzz)

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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03-12-2013, 10:19 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 09:53 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  I personally can't stomach morality being entirely subjective for some of the connotations it entails.

But we can see from history that it is. Look at how society's moral views on any social issue has evolved over the centuries. In remote tribes not effected by outside cultural influences, cannibalism is still considered a moral behavior.

Also look at what societies are still struggling with whether or not it is moral to murder one of your own family members for a perceived "dishonor". It's only the most religious ones, but there are signs that those attitudes are starting to change due to the information age and a modernized shift in how these societies subjectively view morality.

If morality was completely objective, then it makes it hard to stomach how much disgusting and evil shit we have done to each other since the dawn of man based on what we thought (or were told by corrupt authority) it should be. I find it comforting that we have finally reached an age of humanity capable of reasoning out and sharing and comparing what we should and shouldn't do to one another.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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03-12-2013, 10:27 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 09:50 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  Is it also true that babies are little psychopaths and they learn/grow out of it?
I've heard this somewhere but never really checked it out

This is partially true. From a totally naturalist angle, moral behavior (and all other human behavior) comes from brain processes; and since a baby's brain is very undeveloped in most ways, it would follow that they will "grow out of it" as they get older.
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03-12-2013, 10:27 PM
RE: Objective Morality
See this article for more information on the evolutionary origins of morality. Start reading from "A more obvious allusion..."
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03-12-2013, 10:38 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 10:19 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  But we can see from history that it is. Look at how society's moral views on any social issue has evolved over the centuries. In remote tribes not effected by outside cultural influences, cannibalism is still considered a moral behavior.

Also look at what societies are still struggling with whether or not it is moral to murder one of your own family members for a perceived "dishonor". It's only the most religious ones, but there are signs that those attitudes are starting to change due to the information age and a modernized shift in how these societies subjectively view morality.

If morality was completely objective, then it makes it hard to stomach how much disgusting and evil shit we have done to each other since the dawn of man based on what we thought (or were told by corrupt authority) it should be. I find it comforting that we have finally reached an age of humanity capable of reasoning out and sharing and comparing what we should and shouldn't do to one another.
Thanks. While I agree that our views on morality have evolved for the better, it doesn't mean that morality can't be objective. For example, you think slavery is immoral? Is it immoral only after the 19th century but moral before? I think there you see what I mean by objective morality. If morality is subjective, then we cannot say that certain atrocities perpetrated in history were immoral because they could've been seen as moral in their culture and time period. Ironically I'm listening to an episode of TTA on this.

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03-12-2013, 10:38 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 10:27 PM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  See this article for more information on the evolutionary origins of morality. Start reading from "A more obvious allusion..."

Good stuff. I think it's beyond dispute (scientifically) that morality is the product of natural selection, not supernatural beings.
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03-12-2013, 10:42 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 10:38 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  Thanks. While I agree that our views on morality have evolved for the better, it doesn't mean that morality can't be objective. For example, you think slavery is immoral? Is it immoral only after the 19th century but moral before? I think there you see what I mean by objective morality. If morality is subjective, then we cannot say that certain atrocities perpetrated in history were immoral because they could've been seen as moral in their culture and time period. Ironically I'm listening to an episode of TTA on this.

The reason that slavery is looked down upon is simply because of empathy. We would not want to be in their shoes. Just because people are surrounded by others in the western world who (not counting racists) look down it doesn't mean everyone else does. The fact that slavery in its various forms still exists shows that objective morality does not exist. Objective implies universality to my mind.
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03-12-2013, 10:44 PM
RE: Objective Morality
So far I've found the moral realist position the most solid one.

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03-12-2013, 10:45 PM
RE: Objective Morality
Morality cannot be objective because you have to establish a moral framework before making any kind of moral judgment. Whether you base it on religion, evolutionary biology or simply your own opinion is a subjective choice.

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03-12-2013, 10:54 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 10:42 PM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  The fact that slavery in its various forms still exists shows that objective morality does not exist. Objective implies universality to my mind.

I dont see how you get from that premise to that conclusion.
Maybe we're talking past each other as I often see in this topic.
When I say objective morality I dont mean what everybody thinks is moral. I mean what's moral regardless of what people think.
It's also more of a philosophical question rather than a biological one. I'm not arguing that our sense and perception of morality doesnt evolve with our species. I'm asking whether there are objective morals (regardless of time and place)
I think I side with moral realism now that I've read some about it.
I'd be happy to be convinced otherwise

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