Objective Morality
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03-12-2013, 11:03 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 10:45 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Morality cannot be objective because you have to establish a moral framework before making any kind of moral judgment. Whether you base it on religion, evolutionary biology or simply your own opinion is a subjective choice.

I see that. I however can't contemplate an entirely subjective morality. Otherwise I cant say that" the holocaust was evil or wrong". I think that's a statement that's either true or false. It can't be both.
Again I'm not talking about our perception of morality, which changes, but about the fact of morality. Forgive my poor wording I have never studied philosophy.

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03-12-2013, 11:03 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 10:54 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  When I say objective morality I dont mean what everybody thinks is moral. I mean what's moral regardless of what people think.
This is impossible, though.

We would have to be able to establish how something can be moral just because it is, and there is no way to do that.
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03-12-2013, 11:10 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 11:03 PM)Juv Wrote:  
(03-12-2013 10:54 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  When I say objective morality I dont mean what everybody thinks is moral. I mean what's moral regardless of what people think.
This is impossible, though.

We would have to be able to establish how something can be moral just because it is, and there is no way to do that.

Yes, you finally get my conundrum. I wouldnt be too sure it's imposible. From the little I have read I think the philosophical school of moral realism has something going for it. Im not very well versed on this, but I think it's necesary to establish that something be moral or amoral because it is or else nothing is really moral or amoral. I think it's more of a phylosophical problem even the divine command theory has but never notices Drinking Beverage

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03-12-2013, 11:23 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 10:45 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Morality cannot be objective because you have to establish a moral framework before making any kind of moral judgment. Whether you base it on religion, evolutionary biology or simply your own opinion is a subjective choice.

If I may make a small change...

Morality can be objective when you first establish a moral framework before making any kind of moral judgment.

That's what we do.

Example (from Sam Harris and others) is a 'well being' framework or landscape.

Morality is not intrinsic, it is contextual.

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03-12-2013, 11:25 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 11:03 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  I see that. I however can't contemplate an entirely subjective morality.
Neither do I. You can make objective moral judgments, but only after you've chosen a moral framework to work with.

(03-12-2013 11:03 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  Otherwise I cant say that" the holocaust was evil or wrong". I think that's a statement that's either true or false. It can't be both.
You can certainly say that you think the Holocaust was wrong, but much like the statement "I think vanilla ice cream is delicious", it lacks any kind of universal validity.

(03-12-2013 11:03 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  Again I'm not talking about our perception of morality, which changes, but about the fact of morality. Forgive my poor wording I have never studied philosophy.
Do you care to elaborate on what you mean by 'the fact of morality'?

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03-12-2013, 11:26 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 11:23 PM)DLJ Wrote:  If I may make a small change...

Morality can be objective when you first establish a moral framework before making any kind of moral judgment.

That's what we do.

Example (from Sam Harris and others) is a 'well being' framework or landscape.

Morality is not intrinsic, it is contextual.
Good catch! That's what I meant to say. Blush

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03-12-2013, 11:40 PM (This post was last modified: 03-12-2013 11:52 PM by evenheathen.)
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 11:03 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  Again I'm not talking about our perception of morality, which changes

Yes you are, you're just arguing against it. Perception is all we have in the end, brother. Either you realize this and deal with it, or we continue on and end up debating what the definition of "is" is (which we most likely will be doing anyway).

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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03-12-2013, 11:44 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 11:25 PM)Vosur Wrote:  You can certainly say that you think the Holocaust was wrong, but much like the statement "I think vanilla ice cream is delicious", it lacks any kind of universal validity.
I don't think the two are in the same category. What validity does it have then if any?
Quote:Do you care to elaborate on what you mean by 'the fact of morality'?
I mean to say just like saying "humans are primates" is an objective fact, moral statements like "rape is wrong" are objectively factual or they're not.

Not to be confused with moral absolutism where moral statements are always right or wrong in every case, moral realism seems to me allows for certain statements to be mostly right and mostly wrong depending on the situation. I think moral realism allows for us to say "the Holocaust is wrong" and not deconstruct the sentence into a preference or just perception.

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03-12-2013, 11:49 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 11:23 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Morality can be objective when you first establish a moral framework before making any kind of moral judgment.

That's what we do.

Example (from Sam Harris and others) is a 'well being' framework or landscape.

Morality is not intrinsic, it is contextual.

I think Sam Harris on his TED talk arguing the fact that morality is not contextual when he is able to say that the treatment of women in islam is wrong. If it's just contextual then he really can't say anything bad about this. But then it also depends of how contextual you allow morality to be.

Thanks for your input, I still struggle philosophically with this question. Maybe I always will.
I think Harris is on to something

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03-12-2013, 11:57 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 11:44 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  I don't think the two are in the same category. What validity does it have then if any?
Your statement is valid to anyone who accepts your moral framework. Those who adhere to a different one, in this case, for example, Neo-Nazis, would deem your judgment invalid for obvious reasons.

(03-12-2013 11:44 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  I mean to say just like saying "humans are primates" is an objective fact, moral statements like "rape is wrong" are objectively factual or they're not.
Do you have a specific method in mind which we could use to objectively determine the morality of an act without establishing a moral framework first? Consider

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