Objective Morality
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04-12-2013, 12:02 AM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2013 12:09 AM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 09:18 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  I'm new to this side of the glass. I still have no satisfying answer to the question of where an atheist objectively gets its morals from.

"IT'S".....?
Shocking
WTF???

WTF is this "objective morality" shit, really? Made-up word salad, straight out of the festering ass of Bill Craig.

I have yet to see a real or satisfying definition or description of what it is supposed to be. People just trot out the term by fiat, as if everyone knew what it was supposed to be.


Quote: I have found the religious answer to be fallacious in theism there is NO objective moral, just whatever the deity decides his minions should behave like and the morality is not objective but subjective to the deity's whims.

Should tell you something, then.

Quote: As far as atheism is concerned is there an objective source for morality, or is it purely subjective? Forgive me if you think its a stupid question

It's word salad, that's what it is.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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04-12-2013, 12:07 AM
RE: Objective Morality
By the way, we had a very similar discussion a long time ago; you may want to check out that thread as well. Thumbsup

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04-12-2013, 12:16 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(04-12-2013 12:02 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(03-12-2013 09:18 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  I'm new to this side of the glass. I still have no satisfying answer to the question of where an atheist objectively gets its morals from.

"IT'S".....?
Shocking
...

I take it that you were subjectively objecting to being referred to as an 'it' and not just incorrectly correcting the spelling?

Big Grin

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04-12-2013, 02:58 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(04-12-2013 12:02 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  WTF is this "objective morality" shit, really? Made-up word salad, straight out of the festering ass of Bill Craig.

Settle down spaz. WLC didn't invent the idea of moral realism and there are many atheists--popular (e.g. Sam Harris) and academic (e.g. Mario Bunge)--that argue that moral realism is true. You must be an expert in moral philosophy because you have watched some YouTube videos, right?
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04-12-2013, 02:59 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 09:22 PM)black_squirrel Wrote:  There are probably different opinions among atheists on this. But my morality is based on treating other people as equals.

You don't understand the question.
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04-12-2013, 03:06 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 09:44 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  The question I still have unanswered is a bit different and I've seen debates where the theist and the atheist talk past each other because they're discussing different aspects of morality.

Good luck trying to explain the philosophical problem to most of the people here.

Quote:I havent seen a satisfying atheistic answer to this yet.

It is still largely an open problem but there are some baby steps towards a naturalistic/realist axiology which would form the basis of an objective naturalistic system of ethics.

Quote:The theistic answer is in my opinion fallacious because what they offer is not objective morality. It looks objective to us, but its subjective to god.

I don't know whether the subject-object distinction pertains to a divine person so I am uncertain whether anything is subjective to a divine person.
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04-12-2013, 03:10 AM
RE: Objective Morality
''Moral truth'' is determined by the parameters chosen, be they the whims of a god, a goal-oriented system, a cost/benefit analysis, or completely arbitrary. If there exist multiple possible parameters for judgement, then no judgement is universally objective. The judgement is only objective under the chosen parameters.

It's simply impossible for something to be right or wrong absolutely. Things are always right or wrong according to a particular system of evaluation.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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04-12-2013, 03:14 AM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2013 03:37 AM by Chippy.)
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 10:09 PM)Juv Wrote:  Objective would imply that a moral code is somehow part of the universe - e.g. the way electromagnetism is, or light is.

No it wouldn't. The notion of morality is meaningful only in the context of the existence of sentient creatures that have interests. There is no morality on a lifeless planet.

Quote:I suppose absolute morality would be a moral code that is unchanging or unchangeable.

No. It is a matter of objective truth that humans require nutrition hence human nourishment is an objective value--it exists so long as humans exist. But human nourishment is not an absolute value; there exist situations in which a human should deny themselves nourishment even when they are experiencing hunger, e.g. before receiving general anaesthesia. Thus human nourishment is a objective value but it is not absolute. Also to pre-empt your likely response naturalistic axiology is based on human well-being so nourishment is a moral good.
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04-12-2013, 03:15 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(04-12-2013 03:10 AM)Elesjei Wrote:  It's simply impossible for something to be right or wrong absolutely. Things are always right or wrong according to a particular system of evaluation.

You have conflated the notions of objectivity and absolutism.
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04-12-2013, 03:20 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 10:19 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  If morality was completely objective, then it makes it hard to stomach how much disgusting and evil shit we have done to each other since the dawn of man based on what we thought (or were told by corrupt authority) it should be. I find it comforting that we have finally reached an age of humanity capable of reasoning out and sharing and comparing what we should and shouldn't do to one another.

You can see how this reasoning is flawed by comparing notions of morality with notions of health. Primitive medical practices, e.g. blood-letting, don't demonstrate that there is no such objective thing as health, rather they demonstrate an ignorance about how to achieve health. Using witchcraft to try and cure bubonic plague doesn't mean that bubonic plague isn't caused by bacteria that are best treated with antiobiotics.
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