Objective Morality
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04-12-2013, 08:38 AM
RE: Objective Morality
So is it possible for one to reconcile moral realism with nihilism?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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04-12-2013, 08:58 AM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2013 09:06 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Objective Morality
(04-12-2013 07:47 AM)djkamilo Wrote:  I thought you were. I used to be a Calvinist. I've been an unbeliever for around a year. DLJ I think you might understand my dilemma as well. i don't think I understand some of the lingo, I've never studied philosophy but in my theist days this was a big apologetic arrow in my quiver. As I've seen things from a skeptic perspective I now see the issues with the divine command moral theory. I had forgotten about Sam Harris and find him incredibly helpful and understands my issue. Thanks for the input here

No sweat.

As a tip from oldie to newbie... It's best (not in an absolute sense Big Grin ) to avoid sweeping generalities unless laden with irony (and even then that's completely beyond the Murikans on this forum Laughat see what I did there?)

Other contributors get it too... Vosur (always) and Elesjei (in post #47) and probably some others (I'm too tired to go back and check).

There did appear to be (as I read it) a moment or two where you were mixing up what appears to be true vs. what you would like to be true i.e. not liking the idea that morality is subjective.

This may have contributed to the confusion.

And also, pure vs applied...
In a pure sense, morality is subjective and sure, that's a hard one to swallow but the universe doesn't give a shit.

When applied, we must use some constraints, do some scoping etc. to get to the moral systems societies apply once we have consensus (within a given society) i.e. a 'moral landscape' (says Sam Harris) or framework (says me and ISO etc.) or naturalistic axiology (says Chippy idiosyncratically Tongue ).

i.e. the assumption that human well being is a 'good' thing.

I attended a conference recently where the virus and bacteria, rat and cockroach speakers seemed to be adamant that humans are a dangerous menace to society. It was hard to disagree.

There can only be absolutes (extremes of a scale) or objectivity without an axiology if we knew in advance the outcomes that this universe intends.

I dunno what these outcomes are but theists (WLC et al) seem to be impressively ahead of us on that. Beats me how they can be so certain :sigh:

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04-12-2013, 09:18 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(04-12-2013 08:27 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  It all started from "You scratch my back and i'll scratch yours"

EDIT: I don't think there's a concrete definition for morality.. it always depends on what the society generally accepts as right or wrong.

For ex: in Islamic nations its perfectly morally justified to stone a woman brutally to death just because she's accused of adultery.. perfectly accepted by the society as moral but it is not actually moral for us.

So morality is neither objective or subjective it varies on what the society accepts as moral.

I understand your position. It is IMHO a subjective view of morality.
Whatever you want to call it, I find it immoral (pardon the pun) Angel to say that's them killing each other over there and that's right for them but not for me and neither of us is right or wrong. It becomes problematic if you bring it home a bit closer and look at religious communities who approve on parents physically abusing their kids. If you think that's moral for them but immoral for you you are correct in how morality is perceived from both sides, but if there is no objective morality that applies both to you and them, then there's no way you can be outraged let alone intervene because it just becomes a difference of opinion in which no party is ultimately correct.

“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.” ― Richard Pryor
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04-12-2013, 12:05 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(03-12-2013 09:18 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  I'm new to this side of the glass. I still have no satisfying answer to the question of where an atheist objectively gets its morals from. I have found the religious answer to be fallacious in theism there is NO objective moral, just whatever the deity decides his minions should behave like and the morality is not objective but subjective to the deity's whims. As far as atheism is concerned is there an objective source for morality, or is it purely subjective? Forgive me if you think its a stupid question
Objective morality does not exist because there is no source of it, there are no consequences of it, any moral dispute cannot be resolved definitively.

Subjective morality is just idiotic, it's people stating their own opinions (knowing that its their own opinion and that other's opinions differ) and then somehow claiming that their own opinions apply to everyone else and that everyone else ought to act in such and such a way.

Morality is a belief system, it has no bearing on reality.
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04-12-2013, 12:08 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(04-12-2013 12:05 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(03-12-2013 09:18 PM)djkamilo Wrote:  I'm new to this side of the glass. I still have no satisfying answer to the question of where an atheist objectively gets its morals from. I have found the religious answer to be fallacious in theism there is NO objective moral, just whatever the deity decides his minions should behave like and the morality is not objective but subjective to the deity's whims. As far as atheism is concerned is there an objective source for morality, or is it purely subjective? Forgive me if you think its a stupid question
Objective morality does not exist because there is no source of it, there are no consequences of it, any moral dispute cannot be resolved definitively.

Subjective morality is just idiotic, it's people stating their own opinions (knowing that its their own opinion and that other's opinions differ) and then somehow claiming that their own opinions apply to everyone else and that everyone else ought to act in such and such a way.

Morality is a belief system, it has no bearing on reality.



really really good post!!!ThumbsupThumbsupThumbsup

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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04-12-2013, 12:30 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(04-12-2013 12:05 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Subjective morality is just idiotic, it's people stating their own opinions (knowing that its their own opinion and that other's opinions differ) and then somehow claiming that their own opinions apply to everyone else and that everyone else ought to act in such and such a way.

Morality is a belief system, it has no bearing on reality.

Help me understand, if morality is a belief system then it's subjective is it not?

“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.” ― Richard Pryor
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04-12-2013, 12:32 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(04-12-2013 08:38 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  So is it possible for one to reconcile moral realism with nihilism?

I don't think so, both seem to be mutually exclusive

“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.” ― Richard Pryor
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04-12-2013, 12:34 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(04-12-2013 12:08 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(04-12-2013 12:05 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Objective morality does not exist because there is no source of it, there are no consequences of it, any moral dispute cannot be resolved definitively.

Subjective morality is just idiotic, it's people stating their own opinions (knowing that its their own opinion and that other's opinions differ) and then somehow claiming that their own opinions apply to everyone else and that everyone else ought to act in such and such a way.

Morality is a belief system, it has no bearing on reality.



really really good post!!!ThumbsupThumbsupThumbsup

and yet... completely wrong.

Big Grin

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04-12-2013, 12:38 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(04-12-2013 12:34 PM)DLJ Wrote:  and yet... completely wrong.

Big Grin

I am wrong often. I really did agree with the post.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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04-12-2013, 12:39 PM
RE: Objective Morality
DLJ, who is WLC?

“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.” ― Richard Pryor
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