Objective Morality ...
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13-02-2014, 10:42 PM
RE: Objective Morality ...
(13-02-2014 10:37 PM)fmudd Wrote:  I am defining "GOOD" as, at a base level, letting us live longer, reproduce more, and reduce harm/increase pleasure.

Thus, anything "BAD" would be the opposite of that.

But you are essentially talking about survival. For a majority of living creatures, their survival depends on the death of another creature. So how is morality qualified in that context?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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13-02-2014, 10:48 PM
RE: Objective Morality ...
(13-02-2014 10:41 PM)nach_in Wrote:  And why are those values considered good? is there an intrinsic merit to them or is it just something you consider beneficial?
I will say those values should be considered "Good" and have "intrinsic merit" BECAUSE they are beneficial to all beings.

For example; promoting activities defined as "GOOD" allows human beings at least to live longer, reproduce, and lead more fulfilling lives.

(13-02-2014 10:41 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Do you imagine any scenario in which those things could be considered bad?

This is where it get's complicated but the short answer is no, as long as we all engage in the said activities we all consider "GOOD".

For example, if NO ONE murdered, that would be "GOOD".
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13-02-2014, 10:51 PM
RE: Objective Morality ...
(13-02-2014 10:42 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  But you are essentially talking about survival. For a majority of living creatures, their survival depends on the death of another creature. So how is morality qualified in that context?

This is a little complicated for sure but I would say as a short answer that there are different levels.

The concept I would get behind is this; first help yourself and then help others. If there is a choice, you need to be able to help yourself/survive first before you can help others.

To put this in context, a human being can't save the environment, the whales, etc. if they cannot eat, therefore I would say that it is objectively "GOOD" if human beings looked out for themselves first before helping the animals.
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13-02-2014, 11:04 PM
RE: Objective Morality ...
(13-02-2014 10:48 PM)fmudd Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 10:41 PM)nach_in Wrote:  And why are those values considered good? is there an intrinsic merit to them or is it just something you consider beneficial?
I will say those values should be considered "Good" and have "intrinsic merit" BECAUSE they are beneficial to all beings.

Are they? how would you prove such claim? remember you're trying to be objective here.

Quote:For example; promoting activities defined as "GOOD" allows human beings at least to live longer, reproduce, and lead more fulfilling lives.

That's tautological, doing things defined as good is, by definition, good. But a definition is not an objective fact.

Quote:
(13-02-2014 10:41 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Do you imagine any scenario in which those things could be considered bad?

This is where it get's complicated but the short answer is no, as long as we all engage in the said activities we all consider "GOOD".

For example, if NO ONE murdered, that would be "GOOD".

That extreme situation in which everyone acts in a way that it improves everyone's chances to live longer and reproduce more would certainly lead to overpopulation, which it would be really unpleasant.

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13-02-2014, 11:09 PM
RE: Objective Morality ...
(13-02-2014 10:48 PM)fmudd Wrote:  I will say those values should be considered "Good" and have "intrinsic merit" BECAUSE they are beneficial to all beings.

It's not beneficial to the poor gazelle that gets torn to shreds by the cheetah. Smile

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13-02-2014, 11:11 PM
RE: Objective Morality ...
(13-02-2014 10:51 PM)fmudd Wrote:  The concept I would get behind is this; first help yourself and then help others. If there is a choice, you need to be able to help yourself/survive first before you can help others.

Kinda like when you are on a nosediving plane and the oxygen mask drops down. ... Put your mask on first and then help your child or an elderly person. Thumbsup

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13-02-2014, 11:11 PM
RE: Objective Morality ...
(13-02-2014 11:09 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 10:48 PM)fmudd Wrote:  I will say those values should be considered "Good" and have "intrinsic merit" BECAUSE they are beneficial to all beings.

It's not beneficial to the poor gazelle that gets torn to shreds by the cheetah. Smile

Which is why when we talk about objective morality we should limit it to one species.
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13-02-2014, 11:12 PM
RE: Objective Morality ...
(13-02-2014 11:11 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 10:51 PM)fmudd Wrote:  The concept I would get behind is this; first help yourself and then help others. If there is a choice, you need to be able to help yourself/survive first before you can help others.

Kinda like when you are on a nosediving plane and the oxygen mask drops down. ... Put your mask on first and then help your child or an elderly person. Thumbsup

Exactly; that was the concept I had in mind when I wrote that.
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13-02-2014, 11:15 PM
RE: Objective Morality ...
In addition, extract the airplane concept to the whole species; the species helps itself before it helps others.
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13-02-2014, 11:17 PM
RE: Objective Morality ...
(13-02-2014 10:22 PM)fmudd Wrote:  I wanted to respond to the question of objective morality separate from my Christian Friend (she just refuses to get her account and wants to use mine, whatever).

Um there is a basic problem with casting one's arguments in a forum through an intermediary.

It's an honesty problem.

It's a problem.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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