Objective Morality ...
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15-02-2014, 02:49 PM
RE: Objective Morality ...
(15-02-2014 05:36 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(15-02-2014 05:16 AM)tmason Wrote:  So that would be a bad example and invalid.

No it isn't because there is a net gain of another human:
* the pleasure of the rapist offsets the pain of the rape victim
* the reproduction of at least one new human offsets and exceeds the burden and pain of childbirth in the victim


Reproduction is the summum bonum in your system of value so as long as the rape yields a viable infant it was right and good according to your account of value and morality.

What you wrote in bold are YOUR assertions.

Why does the pleasure of one being offset the pain of another?

Why does the production of a new person offset the pain/burden experienced of another?
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15-02-2014, 02:50 PM
RE: Objective Morality ...
(15-02-2014 11:11 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(15-02-2014 09:42 AM)WillHopp Wrote:  So basically I answered the question, "Can there be objective morality?" The answer is, whether you're a deist, theist or atheist, no.

Next topic please.

Nope, I think a non-interventionist deity would represent something objective... because it wouldn't change.

Problem is, we have no way of knowing what this objective axiology / framework would look like because the deity has no way of telling us (without intervening and thus becoming a the-ity).

Again, only arguing from a secular standpoint.

Other's keep bringing religion into this.
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15-02-2014, 02:53 PM
RE: Objective Morality ...
(15-02-2014 06:04 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 10:22 PM)fmudd Wrote:  I wanted to respond to the question of objective morality separate from my Christian Friend (she just refuses to get her account and wants to use mine, whatever). I might just get my *own* own account.

Anyway, I am going to defend objective morality strictly from a secular point of view; if you want to ask questions on God/religious morality she'll respond to you from the other posts.

Simply put; objective morality exists because because all living creatures wish to reduce harm as much as possible for as long as possible.

Let's take a simple example; lighting a fire inside of a forest. When this is done; EVERY living creature tries to either (a) get away from the fire and/or (b) mitigate the harm of the fire and it's ensuing effects.

No living creature that I am aware of goes towards the fire to wilfully incinerate itself.

Now, building off of this and talking about human beings; we all engage in activities that either (A) reduce harm and/or (B) enhance pleasure for ourselves and other people (our species). Even people who inflict physical pain on themselves and others operate off of trying to reduce physiological pain for themselves or others.

So, if we can all agree that in any observed ecosystem of living beings that when "pain" or "death" is introduced that said living creatures run away from that introduction and that all living creatures perform activities which in part reduces said chance of "pain" or "death" can we not say that objectively this "pain" and "death" is bad?

And, if we agree to that premise, isn't that in and of itself a basic definition of objective morality?

There are all kinds of mental illnesses where people attempt to harm themselves. "Morality" exists NOWHERE except inside your brain structures, and is partially innate, (genetic) and partially learned. The gods have absolutely NOTHING to do with any of it. Moral systems are vastly different in different cultures. Some cultures sacrifice PEOPLE to the gods to obtain their favor. Your ignorant bullshit is getting tiresome, FuckingStuckintheMud. The next thing you'll be trying to tell us, that if there IS "objective" morality, it somehow points to (just) your deity. Hahaha. Where does your "objective" morality *exist* anyway ? Prove they (human morality systems), "exist" ANYWHERE other than in human brain structures.

Again, people keep bringing religion into this thread.

Only arguing from a secular standpoint.

That said, It's obvious certain objective principles do exist. I believe that these principles can be extended to a moral framework.
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15-02-2014, 03:23 PM
RE: Objective Morality ...
(15-02-2014 02:53 PM)tmason Wrote:  ...
That said, It's obvious certain objective principles do exist. I believe that these principles can be extended to a moral framework.

Obvious to whom?

Assertion, much.

Please list them.

I have a mini-world tour coming up when I will be lecturing on this subject.

I will present your list and we can all go wow! Was it that easy? Why did we have to have all those brainstorming sessions to find a consensus?

It will be a great way to get everyone laughing.

Please can I have them within the next two weeks so that I can update my slides.

Thanks.

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15-02-2014, 03:38 PM
RE: Objective Morality ...
Oh fuck no, not these "2" again !

They need to get laid and quit trying to impress each other, I dont get it . WTF ? Blink

If bullshit were music some people would be a brass band.
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15-02-2014, 03:48 PM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2014 04:41 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Objective Morality ...
(15-02-2014 02:53 PM)tmason Wrote:  
(15-02-2014 06:04 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There are all kinds of mental illnesses where people attempt to harm themselves. "Morality" exists NOWHERE except inside your brain structures, and is partially innate, (genetic) and partially learned. The gods have absolutely NOTHING to do with any of it. Moral systems are vastly different in different cultures. Some cultures sacrifice PEOPLE to the gods to obtain their favor. Your ignorant bullshit is getting tiresome, FuckingStuckintheMud. The next thing you'll be trying to tell us, that if there IS "objective" morality, it somehow points to (just) your deity. Hahaha. Where does your "objective" morality *exist* anyway ? Prove they (human morality systems), "exist" ANYWHERE other than in human brain structures.

Again, people keep bringing religion into this thread.

Only arguing from a secular standpoint.

That said, It's obvious certain objective principles do exist. I believe that these principles can be extended to a moral framework.

Who cares what you think ? Doesn't matter what standpoint you're arguing from. You asserting something does not make it true.
No one here "has to account for" anything. If you say there is "objective morality" you must demonstrate it to be true. You can't.
You have in no way demonstrated "objective morality" exists anywhere. Your brain (and everyone's else's also) LEARNED what you came to call "morality". No two people actually agree 100% or even substantially on what is or is not moral. Even taking a life is not agreed upon, and under what circumstances it's ok. It's vastly different in different cultures. It's similarly learned in SOME cultures, to some extent. You have in NO WAY proven your point. The fact that under certain circumstances SOME people and SOME animals behave in a similar way is meaningless. Many do not, under the same circumstances. Even self-preservation is not an absolute.
It (moral systems) exists *nowhere* except in brains that have learned what they call "morals" or ethics. In that respect it's DIFFERENT in every brain that exists, and which has learned it. The learned behaviors and other behaviors are the result of INDIVIDUAL brain pathway systems firing .. some are learned, some are genetic, and NOT ONE is exactly the same. Try harder.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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31-12-2014, 06:19 AM
RE: Objective Morality ...
(13-02-2014 10:22 PM)fmudd Wrote:  I wanted to respond to the question of objective morality separate from my Christian Friend (she just refuses to get her account and wants to use mine, whatever). I might just get my *own* own account.

Anyway, I am going to defend objective morality strictly from a secular point of view; if you want to ask questions on God/religious morality she'll respond to you from the other posts.

Simply put; objective morality exists because because all living creatures wish to reduce harm as much as possible for as long as possible.

Let's take a simple example; lighting a fire inside of a forest. When this is done; EVERY living creature tries to either (a) get away from the fire and/or (b) mitigate the harm of the fire and it's ensuing effects.

No living creature that I am aware of goes towards the fire to wilfully incinerate itself.

Now, building off of this and talking about human beings; we all engage in activities that either (A) reduce harm and/or (B) enhance pleasure for ourselves and other people (our species). Even people who inflict physical pain on themselves and others operate off of trying to reduce physiological pain for themselves or others.

So, if we can all agree that in any observed ecosystem of living beings that when "pain" or "death" is introduced that said living creatures run away from that introduction and that all living creatures perform activities which in part reduces said chance of "pain" or "death" can we not say that objectively this "pain" and "death" is bad?

And, if we agree to that premise, isn't that in and of itself a basic definition of objective morality?

How is that morality? That is merely self-interest.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-12-2014, 06:47 AM
RE: Objective Morality ...
Da fuq is with the necromancy? Couldn't you at least necropost something interesting?

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31-12-2014, 07:13 AM
RE: Objective Morality ...
(13-02-2014 10:22 PM)fmudd Wrote:  Simply put; objective morality exists because because all living creatures wish to reduce harm as much as possible for as long as possible.

And, if we agree to that premise, isn't that in and of itself a basic definition of objective morality?

Let's assume the first part is true, that all living creatures wish to reduce harm as much as possible, now this is only in relationship to oneself. All living creatures clearly don't wish not to harm others, in fact some may even desire to. We kill others animals all the time, just for a nice meal.

You provided one possible "is" we want to reduce harm concerning ourselves, now where does the "ought" come from?

In order for morality to be objective, that "ought" has to be objectively true, but that's not possible, particularly if one is not appealing to some sort of teleology of sorts.

It appears that underneath the dressing, you're suggesting something like the golden rule, don't do unto others, what you would not wish done unto you. Religions may have believed this was a rule, a law written somewhere in the heart, or in the fabric of the cosmos, but absent of this being true, it's not a rule, it's merely a slogan, a motivational poster; a suggestion rather than a demand; a preference rather than a rule of law.

Secondly people's views on what makes something moral and immoral also vary, you hinge on consequence, others might hinge it on intent, that moral judgement are reserved for actions in which the intent is known, or assumed to such an extent, and not judged merely by consequences.
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31-12-2014, 08:34 AM
RE: Objective Morality ...
Is "we ought to reduce harm concerning others" not an "ought" Tomasia? It would seem to me that "Hurting others increases harm" is the "is" here.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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