Objective Morality
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31-03-2014, 10:40 AM (This post was last modified: 31-03-2014 10:48 AM by Reltzik.)
RE: Objective Morality
Look. Here's the bottom line on arguing about whether objective morality exists:

It's a total waste of time.

No, really. Leave aside whether it is even a coherent enough concept to discuss in the first place. Would would knowing the fact of its existence or nonexistence do for us? How would it help us make wiser decisions or better understand the world?

Knowing what that objective morality WAS, that might do the trick. But that's a separate question from whether it exists at all. Simply knowing that it existed would not inform us of its contents.

Would knowing that it existed perhaps spur us forward into discovering it? Yes. But we can be spurred in that direction anyway. Consider a contrasting hypothesis, wherein objective morality does not exist, and moral codes are simply constructs of individuals and societies struggling to establish a convention conducive to of productive coexistence. Call objective morality (A) and constructed morality (B). With knowledge of (A), it occurs to us that our current moral understanding is flawed, and we seek to improve it by better discovering, understanding, and incorporating this objective morality into our lives. With (B), it occurs to us that the current social convention is flawed, and that a better way might exist, and we seek to construct a better model and incorporate it into our lives and society. Knowledge of an objective morality would not spur moral progress any more than would believing that morality is subjective. WE WOULD BE DOING THE SAME THING EITHER WAY!

Nor would the knowledge of objective morality give us the slightest direction in how to discover it. What methodology would we use? Assuming that the morality given to us by our family, society, and upbringing is the objective one? Not a reliable method, as it would obviously yield false positives for most people on the planet. Identifying a particular religion's moral code as objective morality? Which religion? The one we grew up with? Again, unreliable, for the same reason. Basing it on a commonality of human instincts? Why would we suppose that instinctive behavior has anything to do with morality? I'm not saying it doesn't, but why would we believe it does?

It's like knowing that there's buried treasure somewhere in the world, but with no map leading to it. Or, perhaps, a plethora of maps, at least 99% of which are false, and each of which have people fervently claiming that they are true and decrying us as amoral for not believing that their map is the right one.

In other words, totally without any value at all.
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31-03-2014, 12:20 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(31-03-2014 10:13 AM)DLJ Wrote:  [quote='sporehux' pid='535196' dateline='1396279215']
...
I say its there, and evolution accounts for it. If its there before social cognitive skills then its "objective"
...
Quote:Nah!

It's still human.

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It's objective because it's a result of an automatic natural process and not the subjective opinion of some god or human.
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31-03-2014, 12:48 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(31-03-2014 09:20 AM)sporehux Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 05:00 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  Show me this objective morality of which you speak, and spare me the b.s. that it is programmed within us, because that makes subjective by definition.

I say its there, and evolution accounts for it. If its there before social cognitive skills then its "objective"

I don't give a rat's ass what you SAY. I said show it to me. If it's there, show it to me. If it's within us, it is subjective. The universality of an idea doesn't make it objective. It's universally recognized that Angelina Jolie is more sexually attractive than Becky on Glee. That doesn't make it any less subjective.

[This post was harsher than it needed to be. I apologize for the tone, but not the content].

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31-03-2014, 01:11 PM
RE: Objective Morality
Has the "learning experience" come to an end? Have not seen the thinking creationist (oops, I mean Christian) in five pages.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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31-03-2014, 03:18 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(31-03-2014 01:11 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Has the "learning experience" come to an end? Have not seen the thinking creationist (oops, I mean Christian) in five pages.

LOL and it removed my responses from its blog page as well.


Saw that one comin'...

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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31-03-2014, 03:21 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(31-03-2014 03:18 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 01:11 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Has the "learning experience" come to an end? Have not seen the thinking creationist (oops, I mean Christian) in five pages.

LOL and it removed my responses from its blog page as well.


Saw that one comin'...

Those were some epic responses. I don't know where you get the energy.

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31-03-2014, 05:02 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(31-03-2014 03:21 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 03:18 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  LOL and it removed my responses from its blog page as well.


Saw that one comin'...

Those were some epic responses. I don't know where you get the energy.

Several Old Chubs didn't hurt the effort.....except maybe for my typing getting a little sloppy, which I didn't bother to clean up any toward the end because I (rightly) figured he'd delete it on his blog anyway...

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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31-03-2014, 05:58 PM (This post was last modified: 31-03-2014 06:13 PM by Charis.)
RE: Objective Morality
I'm just wondering... might we be forgetting situational ethics/morality? (yes, I'm differentiating this from subjective morality)

I think bringing this word into play here is relevant because:

1. I have heard (within Christian circles) the term "situational ethics" or "situational morality" spoken of in a negative light and usually with the idea that this "situational ethics" is in direct opposition to "Godly principles," which are generally seen to be steadfast and constant. So this "situational morality" is also seen as wishy-washy, "convenient," etc., making it seem VERY similar to how they think of "subjective" morality and even sometimes interchangeable.... though I personally would say there's a difference, which is why I wanted to bring it up in the conversation as another term. Which brings me to #2 .....

2. It would seem to ME (I'm not necessarily right, here) that "situational morality/ethics" is something different, because it applies an existing standard to different situations, rather than applying the views of a deity or group/culture to a standard.


Referring to #2 here, I do understand that this still begs the question about whether said standard is itself objective or subjective, but I wanted to bring in the idea of "situational ethics" because it can (in my opinion) resemble "subjective morality" in such a way that the two can often be mistaken for one another.

I don't know if I am making sense, and I apologize if I'm not.
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31-03-2014, 06:33 PM (This post was last modified: 31-03-2014 07:02 PM by DLJ.)
RE: Objective Morality
(31-03-2014 10:40 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  Look. Here's the bottom line on arguing about whether objective morality exists:

It's a total waste of time.
...
In other words, totally without any value at all.

Agreed. Other than for educational purposes.
Which IM(far from)HO are important.
Tongue

(31-03-2014 12:20 PM)Artie Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 10:13 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 09:20 AM)sporehux Wrote:  ...
I say its there, and evolution accounts for it. If its there before social cognitive skills then its "objective"
...

Nah!

It's still human.

Drinking Beverage
It's objective because it's a result of an automatic natural process and not the subjective opinion of some god or human.

Good! Please define the axiom i.e. the calibrations on the scale (or multiple scales) and we'll be on our way.

Looking forward to it.

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02-04-2014, 11:02 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(31-03-2014 06:33 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Good! Please define the axiom i.e. the calibrations on the scale (or multiple scales) and we'll be on our way.

Looking forward to it.

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Please rephrase in English...
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