Objective Morality
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06-04-2014, 01:25 PM
RE: Objective Morality
But for every bat observed doing a "moral" act, there very likely could be another two bats that couldn't give a fuck. Kinda like humans.

What would that say about it?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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06-04-2014, 01:48 PM
RE: Objective Morality
Artie - you have your mind set on what you feel is the answer and despite what anyone has said to the contrary you still hold on to this belief.

Congrats, you're a theist

There is nothing more I can say to a closed mind

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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06-04-2014, 02:13 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(06-04-2014 01:16 PM)Stevil Wrote:  There is a difference between behaviour and moral beliefs.
Behaviour is what is done. Moral beliefs is a belief in whether than behaviour was good or bad.
A vampire bat feed the sick is a behaviour.
If you were to understand the morality behind that behaviour you would need to ask the vampire bat for an explanation as to why it feed the sick.
If it told you "because it was the right thing to do" then that would be morality.
Me: Why do you share food with the sick?
Bat: I do it without thinking because it's instinctive behavior we have evolved because it promotes survival. Humans call this behavior "moral" because it works the same way for their species.
Quote:Do you think the same applies to the Burying beetle eating its young "because that was the right thing to do"?
Are you saying this behavior is wrong for burying beetles? Why? We haven't evolved this behavior because it wouldn't promote survival for our species.
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06-04-2014, 02:27 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(06-04-2014 12:41 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(06-04-2014 12:33 PM)Artie Wrote:  A vampire bat is a social animal. A vampire bat will share its food with sick or starving roost mates. This behavior is the Golden Rule in action, instinct hard wired into their brains by evolution not subject to the subjective opinion of the individual bat. Simply the instinctively objective "right" behavior in that situation ensuring the survival of as many vampire bats as possible. We are also social animals hence we have the same hard wiring which is also why the Golden Rule or the ethic of reciprocity is the best known universal moral code. So I advice following the Golden Rule.
Quote:Still your opinion mate.
It's an objective fact that this behavior increases chances of survival for vampire bats. Not my opinion, just a fact. Try helping your neighbor and murder your other neighbor and you'll soon find out which behavior is objectively most beneficial for you. Nothing subjective about that.
Quote:Aztec society held that the world would end unless the Gods were given blood sacrifice. Their moral code was not wiped out by evolution but by Spanish guns. It was a perfectly working moral code though.
Smile
Quote:Plenty of other species do not follow the golden rule anyway.
Depends on to which degree they are social animals and depend on each other for survival.
Quote:Please state the golden rule according to you.
One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.
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06-04-2014, 02:30 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(06-04-2014 01:25 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  But for every bat observed doing a "moral" act, there very likely could be another two bats that couldn't give a fuck. Kinda like humans.

What would that say about it?
Good point. Can you quote some source giving any statistics on how many bats actually do this? That would be interesting to know.
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06-04-2014, 02:40 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(06-04-2014 02:30 PM)Artie Wrote:  
(06-04-2014 01:25 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  But for every bat observed doing a "moral" act, there very likely could be another two bats that couldn't give a fuck. Kinda like humans.

What would that say about it?
Good point. Can you quote some source giving any statistics on how many bats actually do this? That would be interesting to know.

Nope. It was just a thought.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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06-04-2014, 02:42 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(06-04-2014 01:48 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Artie - you have your mind set on what you feel is the answer and despite what anyone has said to the contrary you still hold on to this belief.

Congrats, you're a theist

There is nothing more I can say to a closed mind
How many times have you heard about situations where people have risked their lives to help other people and when asked afterwards they say something like "It happened so fast I reacted on pure instinct and didn't have time to think". Thinking like in forming some subjective opinion on what was the moral thing to do?
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06-04-2014, 02:45 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(06-04-2014 02:13 PM)Artie Wrote:  Me: Why do you share food with the sick?
Bat: I do it without thinking because it's instinctive behavior we have evolved because it promotes survival. Humans call this behavior "moral" because it works the same way for their species.
You are generalising when you say <Humans call this behavior "moral"> because of course only some humans would, on the contrary some humans would not call it "moral".

But it seems to me that your definition of morality would be:
Behavioural traits that promote human survival?

Would you agree with that?

Again it generalises because what is meant by "human survival"? If by self preservation, saving my own life comes at the cost of four other human lives then what is the morally objective thing to do? Save myself at the cost of four others or save four others at the cost of myself?


(06-04-2014 02:13 PM)Artie Wrote:  Are you saying this behavior is wrong for burying beetles? Why? We haven't evolved this behavior because it wouldn't promote survival for our species.
I am not conflating behaviours with moral beliefs. I have no opinion as to whether eating one's own offspring is moral or immoral.
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06-04-2014, 03:02 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(06-04-2014 02:45 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You are generalising when you say <Humans call this behavior "moral"> because of course only some humans would, on the contrary some humans would not call it "moral".
Who and would that change the objective fact that statistically on the average people who help each other are more likely to survive than people who murder each other?
Quote:But it seems to me that your definition of morality would be:
Behavioural traits that promote human survival?
Well-being and survival because well-being more often than not makes people want to survive.
Quote:Again it generalises because what is meant by "human survival"? If by self preservation, saving my own life comes at the cost of four other human lives then what is the morally objective thing to do? Save myself at the cost of four others or save four others at the cost of myself?
To save others at the cost of myself. Instinctive behavior promoting survival for as many as possible. Same instinctive behavior as a bee giving up its life for its hive or a vervet monkey putting himself in danger by yelling out to warn the flock at the sight of a predator.
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06-04-2014, 03:14 PM
RE: Objective Morality
Bedtime here. Have to go. See you later.

morondog
Stevil
evenheathen
Rahn127

Thanks for the civil conversation and not insulting me.
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