Objective Morality
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28-03-2014, 09:35 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(28-03-2014 07:02 PM)DLJ Wrote:  OK. In response to the question...

I think it is a well written piece. A few slightly clumsy sentences but the flow is generally readable.

Good job.

Well thanks.. so what is your take on the topic? Do you think there can be objective moral values and duties if there is not God?
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28-03-2014, 09:36 PM
RE: Objective Morality
Ok,i'm back.
Your writing style is ok,and certainly better than mine,although i do think the last piece is copypasta.

Now why i don't think objective morality comes from god:

say god was the authority on morality. If (s)he decided one day that rape is moral,would rape become moral? I don't think so. Rape would still have all those negative effects on the victim,and therefore still be immoral. If god said killing your teenage kid if he misbehaves and is acting stubborn is moral from now on,will that mean it is moral now?

Also,if god is the moral standard,is his standard objectively moral?
According to god's moral standard,it is ok to kill homosexuals. While i believe it is not.


Also,i think wether something moral depends on the situation.
Say for example,killing a human is immoral.
Is it immoral to kill someone who is attempting massmurder?



And now this.
You wrote
1.if god does not exist,objective moral standards and duties do not exist.
2.objective moral standards do exists.
3.therefore god exists


show why you believe premise 1 and 2 are true.


Then,you start with more BS.
The theory of evolution does not say anything against or for the existence of a supreme being who is an authority on morality.

Also,evolution IS the thing that caused moral values.
The chance of survival is higher if we work together as a group,and if we harmed members of our group randomly,we would cause our own extinction. In order to succesfully work together,we must've developed a sense of empathy,wich i believe to be the basis of morality.
This empathy can be seen in all social species on the planet. Bobobos and shimps for example have shown remarkable sense of fairness and stuff.
Also,the pic at the bottom is a rather misleading depiction of evolution.

Now i need some coffee

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
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28-03-2014, 09:36 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(28-03-2014 09:34 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 07:02 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Without god there can be no objective morality=there is no objective morality.
Objective morality is not a real thing...am I getting this right?

Yeah, I don't believe it is a real thing if there is no God or some sort of eternally existent being. I'm not necessarily speaking of the Christian God here. Just that for there to be objective moral values and duties, there must be an objective, eternally existent being.

Hmm well I don't believe in any god or objective morality, but I think I get what you're saying mostly Smile

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28-03-2014, 09:38 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(28-03-2014 07:11 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 06:44 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  Eh... I'd be happy to hear why that isn't true...

It isn't true, because there is no "god". Considering, regardless of whether there is objective or subjective morality, one or the other exist, and "god" does not, there for objective or subjective morality can only exist without "god".

That is not a very good argument. It seems that you must prove that there is no God or god or gods or any sort of eternally existing, objective and rational being before being able to make such a claim as the one that you have made. The argument begs the question... Now as far as the subjective morality part, I concede that subjective morals could exist without God, but that wouldn't really mean anything, because then right and wrong would only be based on experience and say, rape and murder, wouldn't really be wrong.
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28-03-2014, 09:40 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(28-03-2014 07:23 PM)Charis Wrote:  TTC, can I ask a favor? This is going to sound kind of strange, I'm just warning you.

I'm wanting to discuss your article with you paragraph by paragraph and as a whole, but I'm not all that good at the whole debating scene just yet. You seem gentle enough that I could "practice" on you, as it were, and with you I don't think I would need to feel afraid that I would have to "toughen up" and get mean just to survive a bunch of sleight-of-hands like we see with a bunch of other Theists (I'm very sorry, but when you see some of the other things that come through here, you'll understand).

It would be just more of a back-and-forth discussion than a debate. More exploring the Hows and Whys and what-ifs, etc.

From what I can see, it's very probable that you would clobber me in any sort of debating scenario, simply because I am not very practiced.

I might even end by prematurely (and yes, immaturely) throwing my hands up from getting overwhelmed, I dunno. lol

Lol certainly. I understand what you mean. And that's cool by me. I may not be on for a couple of days at a time, but if you don't see a response then it's just that I have been busy with work and family and such, but I would love to have a good conversation about the article. That is what I was hoping for by posting it up here. And yeah, I won't try to sleight of hand you, but I will be honest about my opinions and such. But you won't hear any disrespect from me Smile
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28-03-2014, 09:44 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(28-03-2014 09:38 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 07:11 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  It isn't true, because there is no "god". Considering, regardless of whether there is objective or subjective morality, one or the other exist, and "god" does not, there for objective or subjective morality can only exist without "god".

That is not a very good argument. It seems that you must prove that there is no God or god or gods or any sort of eternally existing, objective and rational being before being able to make such a claim as the one that you have made. The argument begs the question... Now as far as the subjective morality part, I concede that subjective morals could exist without God, but that wouldn't really mean anything, because then right and wrong would only be based on experience and say, rape and murder, wouldn't really be wrong.
i think morality is based on the amount of harm and suffering an action causes to an individual and the society.
Rape and murder both cause much harm and suffering to the individual and the society,therefore it is REALLY wrong.
This harm and suffering can be shown,whereas your "authority on morality" cannot be shown.

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
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28-03-2014, 09:44 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(28-03-2014 08:14 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 06:44 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  Eh... I'd be happy to hear why that isn't true. Like I said, it's the first thing I wrote. And it was a while back... Actually, I suppose subjective morality would exist huh? Thanks for pointing that out! I still don't believe there can be objective morality without God though.

Because it's a bullshit unsupported assertion-by-fiat.

Billions of Buddhists, Hindus, atheists and others who don't believe in your fairy tale monster have far higher moral standards than all of you xtards put together.

There's no such thing as "objective" morality.The phrase is meaningless word salad.

And xtardianity's blood-drenched track record puts the lie to any claim that it holds any sort of moral high ground whatsoever.

Stop. I simply used the God of Christianity as an example because that is what I am most familiar with. I never claimed that it had to be that God that was the standard of objective morality. Did you even read the article? If you had then you would have seen that I made it clear that I wasn't claiming Christianity had any higher moral standard than any other religion. Only that a God, or a being that is eternal and rational and objective must exist if objective moral values exist. If there is no God then there is no objective moral values. I agree with you there.
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28-03-2014, 09:47 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(28-03-2014 08:12 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 06:33 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  I'm not sure if this is in the right area, but I figured it would fit here.

A while back I wrote an article titled "What Is This Objective Morality That You Speak Of?"

It has been posted on InfoBarrel, a popular site that anyone can write for and make money, and I am wondering if any here would be interested in reading it. The URL is below!

Now, I'm not posting it here to get more views, I don't care much about that. What I am really interested in is opinions of my writing. Now keep in mind, this is pretty much the first thing I've ever written regarding theism and such, so please be gentle ^_^.

But serioulsy, if you would like to read it and post here what you thought of it I would be grateful. There is also an interesting conversation in the comment section of that article, but I'd prefer if you keep your comments here just to make it easier on me.

Now, as I've said before, I won't reply to rude or disrespectful comments. I simply want to know if you think it is a decent argument or a bad one and if it actually holds any water. Thanks!

Here is the URL: http://www.infobarrel.com/What_Is_This_O...u_Speak_Of

Since it is your article, you could have summerised it.

Debates start with actual arguments and not with a wall of endless text!

And if you dont like rude attitudes, grow up! This is not a kindergarten!!!

The 'endless wall of text' is the argument. If you don't want to read it then don't. And I'm not trying to start a debate, but simply receive opinions. If you like the article let me know, if not then let me know. If you disagree with it let me know. That's what I was asking for, not for a debate... It is the first article I have written on theism or any sort of philisophical anything, so I wanted some opinions. And kindergarteners are rude too.. I have one so I know! lol. I simply asked that everyone remain civil and not call it "bullshit" or "retarted" because I put a lot of work into it. If it's wrong then fine, but tell me you think so like an adult and not a hormonal teenager like some people do...
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28-03-2014, 09:48 PM
RE: Objective Morality
Ah objective morality. It's a myth as all morality is subjective and a product of evolution (game theory and empathy being Evolutionarily Stable Strategies). If morality was objective there would never be a debate about things such as the death penalty or abortion. However this is not the case, and never has been. To answer this I will ask you 1 question and if you answer it truthfully you will see that God is not the basis for morality (subjective or objective) "If god told you to murder your wife would you do it?"

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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28-03-2014, 09:56 PM
RE: Objective Morality
I'm going to break your response into two parts, and answer them in two separate comments for ease (I hope) of conversation.

First part:
(28-03-2014 09:38 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 07:11 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  It isn't true, because there is no "god". Considering, regardless of whether there is objective or subjective morality, one or the other exist, and "god" does not, there for objective or subjective morality can only exist without "god".
That is not a very good argument. It seems that you must prove that there is no God or god or gods or any sort of eternally existing, objective and rational being before being able to make such a claim as the one that you have made. The argument begs the question...
I am expressing opinion here, not gnostic (as it would be) fact. I can state opinions as freely as I like. But to be fair to you, I didn't clarify whether I was expressing opinion or a claim.

But regardless, I don't need to prove there is no "God". It's a long warn out point, but you...making the claim that there is a "god", and utilizing the presupposition that there is a "god", have to prove there is a "god".

If we go by your logic that I can't make a claim about the reality of reality without disproving this alternative, then what is the special case about your "god" in this respect. Using your logic, we, you and I both, would be required to disprove all things, even the impossible to disprove based on the concept of them. I'm not just talking about disproving other "gods", but also of disproving even concepts that you have never heard about, thought about, anyone has ever thought about, that anyone is even capable of thinking about, concepts that will never be thought about.

We don't need to disprove things, unless the evidence for them is overwhelming. But it is your responsibility, making the claim of the existent of this "god" concept, to provide that evidence.

I've your concept of "objective morality" is your evidence of "god" concept, but your "god" concept is necessary to explain your concept of "objective morality", then you've just created a closed concept. You need outside supporting evidence or reason to accept either concept first. You've only asserted them.





This second part...
(28-03-2014 09:38 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  Now as far as the subjective morality part, I concede that subjective morals could exist without God, but that wouldn't really mean anything, because then right and wrong would only be based on experience and say, rape and murder, wouldn't really be wrong.
I'll respond to in just a sec...

...
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