Objective Morality
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07-04-2014, 02:19 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(07-04-2014 02:08 PM)Stevil Wrote:  This is not what evolution is about.
Evolution is survival of the fittest.
Not least amount of pain.
And in a social context the "fittest" is the one who strives to inflict the least amount of pain and even alleviate as much pain as he can. Those who inflict pain end up in prison which is hardly a good survival strategy.
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07-04-2014, 02:45 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(07-04-2014 01:21 PM)Artie Wrote:  I don't know what you mean. Suppose you have a universe without "life" and then add "life". Would that add to the value of the universe? Is that what you mean?

I'm trying to understand how the golden rule can be objective when it's based on the 'value' of the survival of a community. That value would have to exist outside of the minds and feelings of the community and would have to apply equally to all life. I don't see how it can be something that evolved. To me, that's like saying temperature 'evolved.' Temperature exists outside of us, and can be measured consistently. How is the 'value' of survival measured consistently with the golden rule, and how does this measurement exist objectively, outside of our own viewpoint?

Quote:The golden rule can only exist within a community of living organisms?

OK. That's what I thought you were saying.

(07-04-2014 11:36 AM)Artie Wrote:  Details enabling me to see it from the objective perspective of evolution, that is find out which tactic would cause the least amount of pain to the least amount of people.

The measurement of pain is not objective; that's a subjective measurement created by humans who feel pain and deem it unpleasant. 'It's 50 degrees out' is objective. 'It's cold out' is subjective. 'That causes a lot of pain' is also subjective. Some organisms do not feel pain at all, and pain does not inhibit survival or prevent reproduction. It only makes it unpleasant, which is again subjective, and is rather unique to mammals. What is an objective measurement you would use to determine the proper action?

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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07-04-2014, 02:49 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(07-04-2014 01:59 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Wow! He really racked up a lot of posts. I put him on ignore after this catastrofuck.
It was a catastrofuck for you wasn't it? You wrote that theism was binary (consisting of two parts) and I quote you:

YES ("1", in binary language) (meaning that one "believes")
and
NO ("ZERO", in binary language)(Meaning that one does not "believe").

Where THEISM is your YES and ATHEISM is your NO. I am still waiting for you to explain what are the two parts of THEISM. One of them certainly isn't ATHEISM.

Big Grin
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07-04-2014, 02:52 PM
RE: Objective Morality
Bedtime and working week. I will be busy but shall try to find some time to answer posts.
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07-04-2014, 03:15 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(07-04-2014 02:52 PM)Artie Wrote:  Bedtime and working week. I will be busy but shall try to find some time to answer posts.

Don't even fucking bother.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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07-04-2014, 03:17 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(07-04-2014 02:52 PM)Artie Wrote:  Bedtime and working week. I will be busy but shall try to find some time to answer posts.
Hey Artie

I just wanted to say that I think you are doing a great job of addressing people's comments. Although most people (myself included) disagree with your POV I think it is great to have people expressing different views.

Well done.
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07-04-2014, 07:57 PM (This post was last modified: 07-04-2014 09:21 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Objective Morality
(07-04-2014 10:26 AM)Artie Wrote:  Objective is "not influenced by personal feelings or opinions". Evolution, that doesn't have any "personal feelings or opinions", evolved the moral code the Golden Rule via natural selection. Those who gathered in groups and lived by the Golden Rule were more likely to survive.

And in a social context the "fittest" is the one who strives to inflict the least amount of pain and even alleviate as much pain as he can. Those who inflict pain end up in prison which is hardly a good survival strategy

Now all you have to do is explain EXACTLY how that works, when ONLY "persons" who ALL have "personal feelings and opinions" are THE ONLY ONES who hold the "Golden Rule to be true, and how it works that they NEVER let those things intervene. Then explain how it works when killing off enemies who need not be actually killed to be controlled, demonstrates your point. Actually those in groups who KILLED their opposing groups were more likely to survive. Nice try. Please try harder. You really are just trolling aren't you ?

You just made up that definition of "fittest". In all of human history, "prisons" have existed for a tiny fraction of time, thus ANYTHING you say using THAT pathetic bs is ridiculous. The "fittest" by definition is the one the most likely to survive. You don't get to make up your own personal shit definitions, and actually expect others to buy them, do you ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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07-04-2014, 09:15 PM (This post was last modified: 08-04-2014 12:05 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Objective Morality
(07-04-2014 03:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(07-04-2014 02:52 PM)Artie Wrote:  Bedtime and working week. I will be busy but shall try to find some time to answer posts.
Hey Artie

I just wanted to say that I think you are doing a great job of addressing people's comments. Although most people (myself included) disagree with your POV I think it is great to have people expressing different views.

Well done.


Right, because refusing to define his use of 'objective', then ignoring the definitions presented to him, to only later repeatedly ask for definitions of 'objective' whenever it convenient to whatever part of his tap-dance that he's currently in? He's not answering questions, he's playing a definition word game and dancing around the real questions while giving out half-answers that require a clarification that he never supplies. He's playing you for a fool.

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07-04-2014, 11:59 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(07-04-2014 03:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(07-04-2014 02:52 PM)Artie Wrote:  Bedtime and working week. I will be busy but shall try to find some time to answer posts.
Hey Artie

I just wanted to say that I think you are doing a great job of addressing people's comments. Although most people (myself included) disagree with your POV I think it is great to have people expressing different views.

Well done.

[Image: colin-farrell.gif]

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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08-04-2014, 12:41 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(07-04-2014 02:45 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  I'm trying to understand how the golden rule can be objective when it's based on the 'value' of the survival of a community. That value would have to exist outside of the minds and feelings of the community and would have to apply equally to all life.
I think I understand what you mean. Organisms have something called a survival instinct. I have a survival instinct, which is why I value my life. I understand that the vast majority of humans also have a survival instinct and value their lives. Because we evolved a survival instinct and value our lives we would like to be helped if we are in danger of losing it. We also evolved empathy and understand that others feel the same. So we do to others what we would like others do to us, which is help us to preserve our lives. The Golden Rule.
Quote:The measurement of pain is not objective; that's a subjective measurement created by humans who feel pain and deem it unpleasant. 'It's 50 degrees out' is objective. 'It's cold out' is subjective. 'That causes a lot of pain' is also subjective. Some organisms do not feel pain at all, and pain does not inhibit survival or prevent reproduction. It only makes it unpleasant, which is again subjective, and is rather unique to mammals. What is an objective measurement you would use to determine the proper action?
The proper action is the one that is most likely to cause the least pain to the least amount of people. Actions causing a lot of pain to a lot of people will most likely lead to them causing a lot of pain to you in return, even get you killed. And because you have a survival instinct and value your life you don't want that. Making an effort to cause the least amount of pain or even alleviate pain will cause others to do the same to you and you will increase everybody's chances of well-being and survival including your own.

You seem to confuse "objective" with "universally applicable" but what is objectively right behavior for humans may not be objectively right for other organisms. The objectively right behavior for a virus may cause me a lot of pain.
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