Objective Morality
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09-04-2014, 03:39 PM
RE: Objective Morality
Artie can anything falsify your view? You've got a framework that's too soft. You can find a way to explain anything as 'evolutionary morals'. Anything that goes against what you hold as 'evolutionary morals' is 'because they are ill'. This is a waste of time man, I can explain anything in the world that way. The Moon goes round the Earth because of evolutionary morals. It evolved to do it. Asteroids crash into planets because they are ill.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-04-2014, 04:03 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(09-04-2014 02:14 PM)Artie Wrote:  We are programmed with the survival instinct by evolution. Sometimes the copying of the program from parents to offspring goes wrong. Or consistent bullying, disease or other environmental factors overrides the survival instinct.
The cells in the leaves of a tree are living beings evolved from ancestors who are also part of our genetic lineage, and they kill themselves when the time comes for the tree to shed its leaves. Are they ill?

I don't think it can be said that evolution programs anything; it is a human description of how complexity in the universe may arise through a cumulative process of random variation and environmental selection of stable forms. The programs that our cells execute were learned over billions of years by pure luck; not because of a magical abstract programmer that knows what is objectively right or wrong.

Evolution is a story about learning, not a story about teaching.
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09-04-2014, 04:12 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(09-04-2014 02:30 PM)Artie Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 01:19 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Facepalm Get over yourself. The reason I'm out is because you're obviously just trolling and your post here underscored that fact.
So "using reasoning to explain to you how evolution by natural selection works" is the same as trolling. OK if you say so.
What we were discussing was objective vs. subjective morality. You're not even on the right topic. Rolleyes

By the way, "right" as I just used the word means correct, not "moral" and not "left" - just for clarity (because you get confused so easily).

And what I consider trolling is 1) your paying attention to only your preferred and incorrectly applied meaning of a word when the many other meanings were specifically pointed out to you more than once, 2) deliberately ignoring that the reasoning you provided was for taking specific actions, not for an evolutionary process, and 3) mocking me with your condescending claim of educating me just because I decided not to take your bait. Obviously no interest in real discussion.

So fuck off now. Drinking Beverage

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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09-04-2014, 11:40 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(09-04-2014 02:38 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  The golden rule doesn't appear to be a rule at all. There is more death than life as well as countless examples of behaviors that go against survival. The copying of the program from parents to offspring cannot go wrong. There is no objective standard by which it can be held to. That which happens in nature is natural. To claim whether something is beneficial to humans or not, to call something 'moral,' 'sick,' or 'undesirable,' is 100% subjective.

It's like saying water freezing is 'wrong.'
If you can start a post by saying that "the golden rule doesn't appear to be a rule" when it's the most recognized and valued moral rule on the planet and it only goes down from there I give up any rational conversation with you.
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09-04-2014, 11:45 PM
RE: Objective Morality
(09-04-2014 03:39 PM)morondog Wrote:  Artie can anything falsify your view? You've got a framework that's too soft. You can find a way to explain anything as 'evolutionary morals'. Anything that goes against what you hold as 'evolutionary morals' is 'because they are ill'. This is a waste of time man, I can explain anything in the world that way. The Moon goes round the Earth because of evolutionary morals. It evolved to do it. Asteroids crash into planets because they are ill.
The definition of biological evolution is "a gradual change in the characteristics of a population of animals or plants over successive generations" and this is what we are talking about. Nothing to do with moons or asteroids.
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10-04-2014, 12:00 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(09-04-2014 11:45 PM)Artie Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 03:39 PM)morondog Wrote:  Artie can anything falsify your view? You've got a framework that's too soft. You can find a way to explain anything as 'evolutionary morals'. Anything that goes against what you hold as 'evolutionary morals' is 'because they are ill'. This is a waste of time man, I can explain anything in the world that way. The Moon goes round the Earth because of evolutionary morals. It evolved to do it. Asteroids crash into planets because they are ill.
The definition of biological evolution is "a gradual change in the characteristics of a population of animals or plants over successive generations" and this is what we are talking about. Nothing to do with moons or asteroids.

Rolleyes

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-04-2014, 12:08 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(09-04-2014 04:03 PM)living thing Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 02:14 PM)Artie Wrote:  We are programmed with the survival instinct by evolution. Sometimes the copying of the program from parents to offspring goes wrong. Or consistent bullying, disease or other environmental factors overrides the survival instinct.
The cells in the leaves of a tree are living beings evolved from ancestors who are also part of our genetic lineage, and they kill themselves when the time comes for the tree to shed its leaves. Are they ill?
No, that is the evolved objectively right behavior for a tree.
Quote:I don't think it can be said that evolution programs anything; it is a human description of how complexity in the universe may arise through a cumulative process of random variation and environmental selection of stable forms. The programs that our cells execute were learned over billions of years by pure luck; not because of a magical abstract programmer that knows what is objectively right or wrong.
We call the programming that our cells execute that evolved over billions of years by luck and natural selection the right (moral) programming because we are here to call it the right (moral) programming. If a person has a bug or missing codes or an otherwise defective programming and he causes another person to not be here (murder) we call it immoral. What is objectively moral is what causes survival and what is objectively immoral is what causes non-survival simply because if survival wasn't moarlly right we wouldn't be here in the first place.
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10-04-2014, 12:39 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(09-04-2014 04:12 PM)Impulse Wrote:  And what I consider trolling is 1) your paying attention to only your preferred and incorrectly applied meaning of a word when the many other meanings were specifically pointed out to you more than once,
A word can have many meanings I pick the meaning(s) applicable in the context of the conversation.
Quote:2) deliberately ignoring that the reasoning you provided was for taking specific actions, not for an evolutionary process,
I used reasoning to explain to you why some behaviors were naturally selected for by the evolutionary process.
Quote: and 3) mocking me with your condescending claim of educating me just because I decided not to take your bait.
It wasn't condescending it was a statement of the actual fact that your response to my post shows that you need education.
Quote:Obviously no interest in real discussion.
I answered your points logically and rationally. You dismissed my answers and didn't provide any rational or logical counterarguments. That is not a discussion.
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10-04-2014, 12:49 AM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2014 12:57 AM by Artie.)
RE: Objective Morality
(10-04-2014 12:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(09-04-2014 11:45 PM)Artie Wrote:  The definition of biological evolution is "a gradual change in the characteristics of a population of animals or plants over successive generations" and this is what we are talking about. Nothing to do with moons or asteroids.

Rolleyes
Could you please be a little more eloquent and specific as to what was actually logically or rationally wrong with what I stated? Did you notice I didn't use just Rolleyes when answering your post? I expect the same curtesy from you. Or are you just trolling?
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10-04-2014, 01:08 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(10-04-2014 12:49 AM)Artie Wrote:  
(10-04-2014 12:00 AM)morondog Wrote:  Rolleyes
Could you please be a little more eloquent and specific as to what was actually logically or rationally wrong with what I stated? Did you notice I didn't use just Rolleyes when answering your post? I expect the same curtesy from you. Or are you just trolling?

How about you just go fuck your own trolling ass with a cactus. You ain't fooling anyone here. Of course there are known troll-ass-licking toadies like D&C, but they are the sad exception here, and the bottom line is that you and your bullshit are not welcome here. Take your bullshit down the road. Since you cant find anything in this life better to do than to troll forums full of people who see right through your pathetic bullshit, I suggest you just kill yourself. Right now.

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