Objective Morality
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29-03-2014, 12:14 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(28-03-2014 06:33 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  I'm not sure if this is in the right area, but I figured it would fit here.

A while back I wrote an article titled "What Is This Objective Morality That You Speak Of?"

It has been posted on InfoBarrel, a popular site that anyone can write for and make money, and I am wondering if any here would be interested in reading it. The URL is below!

Now, I'm not posting it here to get more views, I don't care much about that. What I am really interested in is opinions of my writing. Now keep in mind, this is pretty much the first thing I've ever written regarding theism and such, so please be gentle ^_^.

But serioulsy, if you would like to read it and post here what you thought of it I would be grateful. There is also an interesting conversation in the comment section of that article, but I'd prefer if you keep your comments here just to make it easier on me.

Now, as I've said before, I won't reply to rude or disrespectful comments. I simply want to know if you think it is a decent argument or a bad one and if it actually holds any water. Thanks!

Here is the URL: http://www.infobarrel.com/What_Is_This_O...u_Speak_Of
I read your article and concluded that you would do well to post each of your conclusions (one at a time) in this forum.
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29-03-2014, 12:54 AM
RE: Objective Morality
The question is always asked: Who decides what it right and what is wrong? For me the answer is simple. No one decides what is right and wrong. Man is free to choose his actions but not the consequences of those actions. The consequences are metaphysically given. If we judge actions by the effect they have on man's life then we can arrive at the answer as to what is right and what is wrong the same way we discover the best way to grow a crop or cure a disease or build a machine to achieve a specific purpose, by observation, reason and induction. It is not rocket science either.

Ethics are not a primary. they rest on metaphysics and epistemology. The fact that we live in an objective reality and possess a specific nature which places certain requirements on us if we want to live means that some actions are bad for us and some are good regardless of what we subjectively think. Reason is the only reliable way we have of coming to any kind of knowledge.

Freedom to choose actions but not consequences + man's life as the standard of value = objective morality. It is up to us to discover what those objective moral principles are not to decide them.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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29-03-2014, 01:03 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(28-03-2014 09:31 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 06:54 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If a child less than 2 yrs old is starving to death right before your eyes, what is the objective moral action to take ?

If you wait but only 1 minute, you will get your answer from your objectively moral law giver.

The answer is: "Do nothing"

I will not go through your entire article and pick it apart piece by piece. I'm sure your gullible christian audience will love it.

How would the answer be to do nothing? That is crazy. The answer wouldn't be do nothing. Not that I would have to ask... I am an adult capable of making decisions. Why would I wait one minute to help a starving child? Or a starving anyone? I don't see where you are getting your assertion.

If you believe a god exists, then god is showing you the objective moral action you should take. God does nothing when faced with a starving child. You on other hand know what the correct moral action that you should take is. That 1 minute you wait, you are viewing gods actions in all his infinite wisdom and power and lets not forget about his unchanging objective morals.

Sorry but even if you had evidence of a gods existence, you still wouldn't be one step closer to objective morality. You would be relying on your own morality to determine if that god was a good god or an evil god or perhaps an indifferent god who didn't care one way or the other if life on a speck of rock in the universe lived or died.

Objective morality is something people argue for in defense of controlling other people by telling them that they personally know what that objective morality is. "I know what is right because someone you can't see whispered it in my ear while I was sleeping"

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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29-03-2014, 01:13 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(29-03-2014 01:03 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 09:31 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  How would the answer be to do nothing? That is crazy. The answer wouldn't be do nothing. Not that I would have to ask... I am an adult capable of making decisions. Why would I wait one minute to help a starving child? Or a starving anyone? I don't see where you are getting your assertion.

If you believe a god exists, then god is showing you the objective moral action you should take. God does nothing when faced with a starving child. You on other hand know what the correct moral action that you should take is. That 1 minute you wait, you are viewing gods actions in all his infinite wisdom and power and lets not forget about his unchanging objective morals.

Sorry but even if you had evidence of a gods existence, you still wouldn't be one step closer to objective morality. You would be relying on your own morality to determine if that god was a good god or an evil god or perhaps an indifferent god who didn't care one way or the other if life on a speck of rock in the universe lived or died.

Objective morality is something people argue for in defense of controlling other people by telling them that they personally know what that objective morality is. "I know what is right because someone you can't see whispered it in my ear while I was sleeping"
It's a matter of adopting an effective social strategy
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29-03-2014, 01:15 AM
RE: Objective Morality
Quote:Is Objective Morality A Reality?
This is a worthy question.
If morality is an innate unchanging property of reality then it is to be discovered rather than to be imagined, believed, voted on, forced upon...
It would be independent of the observer, independent of any personal authority, and would be conclusive rather than debatable.

There would need to be an objective method of discovery. One where people would agree on the method of discovery and this method would be consistent and re-creatable.

The problem with accepting a god as the authority of morality is that this morality becomes personal to the god thus subjective. If the authority where changed or denied then the accepted morality would be different.
This would be no different to accepting Mao Zi Deng as the authority of morality. Some people accept his authority, some people don't. When Mao is replaced then his morality goes by the way side.

If morality were an innate unchanging property of reality then we would not need to appeal to or ask a god as to its secrets. All we would need to do would be to objectively inspect, observe and understand reality.

Science looks to objectively inspect, observe and understand reality but thus far science is silent on moral issues, unless you consider going faster than the speed of light to be immoral.
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29-03-2014, 07:23 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(28-03-2014 09:38 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 07:11 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  It isn't true, because there is no "god". Considering, regardless of whether there is objective or subjective morality, one or the other exist, and "god" does not, there for objective or subjective morality can only exist without "god".

That is not a very good argument. It seems that you must prove that there is no God or god or gods or any sort of eternally existing, objective and rational being before being able to make such a claim as the one that you have made. The argument begs the question... Now as far as the subjective morality part, I concede that subjective morals could exist without God, but that wouldn't really mean anything, because then right and wrong would only be based on experience and say, rape and murder, wouldn't really be wrong.


You haven't demonstrated that this gawd actually exists. It is YOU who is begging the quesrion and attempting to sneak your fairy tale monster in through the back door.

Your fairy take monster, according to your story, is itself a serial mass murderer, so you can't claim it's "really" wrong.


Plus we have reciprocal ethics which your religion ripped off from the Buddha, so there's that.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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29-03-2014, 07:27 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(28-03-2014 10:26 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 09:48 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Ah objective morality. It's a myth as all morality is subjective and a product of evolution (game theory and empathy being Evolutionarily Stable Strategies). If morality was objective there would never be a debate about things such as the death penalty or abortion. However this is not the case, and never has been. To answer this I will ask you 1 question and if you answer it truthfully you will see that God is not the basis for morality (subjective or objective) "If god told you to murder your wife would you do it?"

No. I like that you tried though. I've explained twice though now that God's very nature is that of omnibenevolence and so He couldn't deem it okay to take innocent life ever, it's logically impossible. God can't say "murder is good so kill your wife" because it is objectively not good and it can't be any other way.

Well if you are going by the biblical account God has killed millions of people. If you expand Omnibenevolence to the current world he is responsible (could prevent) Billions of deaths from disease and starvation. Omnibenevolence is one thing the christian god has never shown. Yahweh is a dick as written.

Oh and right there just showed you do not take your morality from God since you hold him to an outside standard.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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29-03-2014, 07:32 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(28-03-2014 09:44 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  
(28-03-2014 08:14 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Because it's a bullshit unsupported assertion-by-fiat.

Billions of Buddhists, Hindus, atheists and others who don't believe in your fairy tale monster have far higher moral standards than all of you xtards put together.

There's no such thing as "objective" morality.The phrase is meaningless word salad.

And xtardianity's blood-drenched track record puts the lie to any claim that it holds any sort of moral high ground whatsoever.

Stop. I simply used the God of Christianity as an example because that is what I am most familiar with. I never claimed that it had to be that God that was the standard of objective morality. Did you even read the article?

I don't need to read it to point out that the idea of objective morality is bullshit. And your gawd is your gawd, don't piss on my back and tell me it's raining. We all fucking KNOW what gawd you are talking about.


Quote:If you had then you would have seen that I made it clear that I wasn't claiming Christianity had any higher moral standard than any other religion. Only that a God, or a being that is eternal and rational and objective must exist if objective moral values exist. If there is no God then there is no objective moral values. I agree with you there.

You haven't demonstrated that there is such a thing as "objective moral values", ANYWAY.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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29-03-2014, 07:45 AM
RE: Objective Morality
(28-03-2014 09:47 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  The 'endless wall of text' is the argument.
\

So you say your wall of text is an argument, but you don't want to argue. Bullshit.

Quote:If you don't want to read it then don't. And I'm not trying to start a debate, but simply receive opinions. If you like the article let me know, if not then let me know. If you disagree with it let me know. That's what I was asking for, not for a debate... It is the first article I have written on theism or any sort of philisophical anything, so I wanted some opinions.




Quote: And kindergarteners are rude too.. I have one so I know! lol. I simply asked that everyone remain civil and not call it "bullshit" or "retarted" because I put a lot of work into it.

Boo Fucking Hoo.

Quote: If it's wrong then fine, but tell me you think so like an adult and not a hormonal teenager like some people do...

A hormonal teenager trolls bullshit at atheist forums and cries when it gets its head handed to it, so there's that.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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29-03-2014, 07:46 AM
RE: Objective Morality
Here's morality's object:

[Image: 17slweh5kq6cljpg.jpg]

New research is suggesting that oxytocin plays a crucial part in enabling us to not just forge and strengthen our social relations, but in helping us to stave off a number of psychological and physiological problems as well. But more conceptually, oxytocin is proving to be a crucial ingredient to what makes us human.

After you get a clue, I would suggest an education.

living word
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