Objective reality?
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01-11-2013, 01:20 PM
Objective reality?
I would like this to not turn into another debate about Satanism but I really need to understand something I have encountered within it.

I believe in logic, reason, rational thinking, empirical evidence and objective reality. To me, there is a reality that is true regardless of what I experience, 'think', feel, etc, if all human beings ceased to exist tomorrow, the Universe/Nature would go on, that is something I believe in.

I also use this 'belief' in Objective reality to decide if certain ideas are true or false, take Ghosts for example, I do not believe in them, I do believe in subjective experiences and understand that people have experienced what they believe are ghosts but it doesnt mean that they are in REALITY.

I do engage in ritual, take last night for example, Halloween! Smile but anything that happens in my rituals are on a subjective level to me, if I do a spell and it works, it worked to me, for me, I understand that I cannot prove that it worked on an objective level because to me magic is...subjective, lol. Personal. If I talk to my mom who died a couple years ago and she 'talks' back to me, I realize it happened in my own mind. It was a subjective experience and I wont deny the power of that experience just as I wont deny the power of Ritual which some (most) Atheists do,

So, I have encountered within Satanism the belief that there is no such thing as Objective reality, our experiences which are completely subjective (and I agree) decide what is real (which I do not agree). If you believe in God, God is real. If you believe in Aliens, Pink Unicorns and Demons, Then they exist. According to the Satanists and I am at an emotional crossroads at the moment.

Am I wrong? Is there no objective reality? Then how do we gauge anything?
I will not stay in something I dont fully believe in or cannot fully endorse so to speak so I need to know the answers now.

Thanks for your time.
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01-11-2013, 01:40 PM
RE: Objective reality?
(01-11-2013 01:20 PM)Irishdize Wrote:  I would like this to not turn into another debate about Satanism but I really need to understand something I have encountered within it.

I believe in logic, reason, rational thinking, empirical evidence and objective reality. To me, there is a reality that is true regardless of what I experience, 'think', feel, etc, if all human beings ceased to exist tomorrow, the Universe/Nature would go on, that is something I believe in.

I also use this 'belief' in Objective reality to decide if certain ideas are true or false, take Ghosts for example, I do not believe in them, I do believe in subjective experiences and understand that people have experienced what they believe are ghosts but it doesnt mean that they are in REALITY.

I do engage in ritual, take last night for example, Halloween! Smile but anything that happens in my rituals are on a subjective level to me, if I do a spell and it works, it worked to me, for me, I understand that I cannot prove that it worked on an objective level because to me magic is...subjective, lol. Personal. If I talk to my mom who died a couple years ago and she 'talks' back to me, I realize it happened in my own mind. It was a subjective experience and I wont deny the power of that experience just as I wont deny the power of Ritual which some (most) Atheists do,

So, I have encountered within Satanism the belief that there is no such thing as Objective reality, our experiences which are completely subjective (and I agree) decide what is real (which I do not agree). If you believe in God, God is real. If you believe in Aliens, Pink Unicorns and Demons, Then they exist. According to the Satanists and I am at an emotional crossroads at the moment.

Am I wrong? Is there no objective reality? Then how do we gauge anything?
I will not stay in something I dont fully believe in or cannot fully endorse so to speak so I need to know the answers now.

Thanks for your time.

I think there is an objective reality that we can learn about through science.
We may never learn all about it, but we might.

Our beliefs do not have any effect on the underlying reality.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-11-2013, 02:00 PM
RE: Objective reality?
The real object of objective reality rarely realises real objectives.

It's all surreal.

Dodgy

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01-11-2013, 02:14 PM
RE: Objective reality?
I foresee a short-lived new field of Experimental Satanism Tongue

I believe like Chas that there *is* an *objective* reality, and that we *experience* this objective reality *subjectively*, because we are part of that reality, and limited parts at that. We don't have the ability to tell what is true or not in a completely error free manner, but we have the ability to understand our objective reality in a limited way through models of what we think is going on, and through successive refinements of those models by testing their predictions (what we expect if the model is true) against observations (what we actually see happening).

Because there is an objective reality, it is not defined by our experience of it, hence it cannot be modified by our wishes. What we can modify in a limited way is our subjective experience. No amount of wishing will make you able to fly, for example, but a sufficient amount of the right substance ingested in unwise amounts might convince you that you do possess that ability.

The thing is, the objective reality thing - it's kinda experimentally true. Do you or do you not believe that you experience roughly the same reality as someone standing next to you ? Of course, not quite (e.g. colours), but our *experiences* in living in our little subjective realities do convince us that our realities and other people's are *related* and the obvious way is through an objective reality not controlled by anyone. So in the end, for me, it's not *useful* to act as if I define my own reality in any but the most trivial way, because my *experience* indicates strongly that this is not the case.

YMMV.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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01-11-2013, 02:15 PM
RE: Objective reality?
(01-11-2013 02:00 PM)DLJ Wrote:  The real object of objective reality rarely realises real objectives.

It's all surreal.

Dodgy

Man who got no tail tonight is in da house Tongue

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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01-11-2013, 02:25 PM
RE: Objective reality?
(01-11-2013 01:20 PM)Irishdize Wrote:  I would like this to not turn into another debate about Satanism...

Then stop being a Satanist. Big Grin

A coupla things we do, is recognize pattern and reinforce pattern, where objective reality is merely the most reinforced pattern. The amount that one can impose their own pattern is dependent upon the amount of pattern held outside the self. I can fly in my dreams, I can convince a coupla people Imma prophet, but it's still raining outside.

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01-11-2013, 02:28 PM
RE: Objective reality?
(01-11-2013 01:20 PM)Irishdize Wrote:  I believe in logic, reason, rational thinking, empirical evidence and objective reality. To me, there is a reality that is true regardless of what I experience, 'think', feel, etc, if all human beings ceased to exist tomorrow, the Universe/Nature would go on, that is something I believe in.

I also use this 'belief' in Objective reality to decide if certain ideas are true or false, take Ghosts for example, I do not believe in them, I do believe in subjective experiences and understand that people have experienced what they believe are ghosts but it doesnt mean that they are in REALITY.

I do engage in ritual, take last night for example, Halloween! Smile but anything that happens in my rituals are on a subjective level to me, if I do a spell and it works, it worked to me, for me, I understand that I cannot prove that it worked on an objective level because to me magic is...subjective, lol. Personal. If I talk to my mom who died a couple years ago and she 'talks' back to me, I realize it happened in my own mind. It was a subjective experience and I wont deny the power of that experience just as I wont deny the power of Ritual which some (most) Atheists do,

So, I have encountered within Satanism the belief that there is no such thing as Objective reality, our experiences which are completely subjective (and I agree) decide what is real (which I do not agree). If you believe in God, God is real. If you believe in Aliens, Pink Unicorns and Demons, Then they exist. According to the Satanists and I am at an emotional crossroads at the moment.

Am I wrong? Is there no objective reality? Then how do we gauge anything?
I will not stay in something I dont fully believe in or cannot fully endorse so to speak so I need to know the answers now.

You seem to be confusing your experiences.

The experiences going on within your own mind are personal, subjective, and have no bering on actual physical reality, except to the degree with which you decide to attach some subjective notion to. However, that still does not mean those experiences have any effect on actual physical reality for anyone else.

This "power" you attach to any experience is still only within you, is subjective, and does not originate from anyone or anything outside of you.

If you do think it originates and/or effects the actual physical world, you may be losing touch with reality. If someone actively reinforces this, they may be trying to help you to lose touch with reality, in order to exploit you.

You stated: According to the Satanists and I am at an emotional crossroads at the moment.

This is quite astute and if these people recognize this vulnerability in you... they seem to be giving you a choice; the chance to leave them or give yourself to them completely.

It's like people who "give themselves over to god"... "give all your troubles to god"... it's pretty much the same thing, just a different name. Biblically speaking, I think there is no difference between the characters of satan and god.

I'm inclined to tell you to get away from this reinforcing activity and get your head together. If you are unable to do this on your own, then you should seek help from a professional psychologist.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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01-11-2013, 02:45 PM
RE: Objective reality?
(01-11-2013 02:25 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(01-11-2013 01:20 PM)Irishdize Wrote:  I would like this to not turn into another debate about Satanism...

Then stop being a Satanist. Big Grin

A coupla things we do, is recognize pattern and reinforce pattern, where objective reality is merely the most reinforced pattern. The amount that one can impose their own pattern is dependent upon the amount of pattern held outside the self. I can fly in my dreams, I can convince a coupla people Imma prophet, but it's still raining outside.

Worship Slaves

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-11-2013, 02:46 PM
RE: Objective reality?
(01-11-2013 01:20 PM)Irishdize Wrote:  I would like this to not turn into another debate about Satanism but I really need to understand something I have encountered within it.

I believe in logic, reason, rational thinking, empirical evidence and objective reality. To me, there is a reality that is true regardless of what I experience, 'think', feel, etc, if all human beings ceased to exist tomorrow, the Universe/Nature would go on, that is something I believe in.

I also use this 'belief' in Objective reality to decide if certain ideas are true or false, take Ghosts for example, I do not believe in them, I do believe in subjective experiences and understand that people have experienced what they believe are ghosts but it doesnt mean that they are in REALITY.

I do engage in ritual, take last night for example, Halloween! Smile but anything that happens in my rituals are on a subjective level to me, if I do a spell and it works, it worked to me, for me, I understand that I cannot prove that it worked on an objective level because to me magic is...subjective, lol. Personal. If I talk to my mom who died a couple years ago and she 'talks' back to me, I realize it happened in my own mind. It was a subjective experience and I wont deny the power of that experience just as I wont deny the power of Ritual which some (most) Atheists do,

So, I have encountered within Satanism the belief that there is no such thing as Objective reality, our experiences which are completely subjective (and I agree) decide what is real (which I do not agree). If you believe in God, God is real. If you believe in Aliens, Pink Unicorns and Demons, Then they exist. According to the Satanists and I am at an emotional crossroads at the moment.

Am I wrong? Is there no objective reality? Then how do we gauge anything?
I will not stay in something I dont fully believe in or cannot fully endorse so to speak so I need to know the answers now.

Thanks for your time.
I wonder if what they are actually saying is "reality" (or more accurately, "perceived reality") for any given person includes their subjective reality as well as objective reality. If you believe in a god, then that god is real for you. It influences how you think, choices you make, and how you behave. So, in that sense it is "reality". But I agree with you that there is a true objective reality that is separate from any individual's experiences or perceptions. That's what the word "truth" means to me when we talking about valuing and seeking truth.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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01-11-2013, 03:02 PM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2013 03:14 PM by Rahn127.)
RE: Objective reality?
The subjective experience we have in our minds of objective reality as relayed to our brains through our senses can be easily checked.

Closing your eyes is one way you can slightly control the objective light coming to your senses, into your brain that creates the subjective experience.
You can also under go brain surgery to show that your subjective experience of life is dependent upon your biological objective senses.

Without the objective body, your subjective experience of life ceases to be.

Lastly, we can only change our objective reality, not by wishing it changed, but by physically changing it with our own bodies, our own words, our own actions.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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