Objective reality?
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01-11-2013, 03:57 PM
RE: Objective reality?
(01-11-2013 02:28 PM)kim Wrote:  
(01-11-2013 01:20 PM)Irishdize Wrote:  I believe in logic, reason, rational thinking, empirical evidence and objective reality. To me, there is a reality that is true regardless of what I experience, 'think', feel, etc, if all human beings ceased to exist tomorrow, the Universe/Nature would go on, that is something I believe in.

I also use this 'belief' in Objective reality to decide if certain ideas are true or false, take Ghosts for example, I do not believe in them, I do believe in subjective experiences and understand that people have experienced what they believe are ghosts but it doesnt mean that they are in REALITY.

I do engage in ritual, take last night for example, Halloween! Smile but anything that happens in my rituals are on a subjective level to me, if I do a spell and it works, it worked to me, for me, I understand that I cannot prove that it worked on an objective level because to me magic is...subjective, lol. Personal. If I talk to my mom who died a couple years ago and she 'talks' back to me, I realize it happened in my own mind. It was a subjective experience and I wont deny the power of that experience just as I wont deny the power of Ritual which some (most) Atheists do,

So, I have encountered within Satanism the belief that there is no such thing as Objective reality, our experiences which are completely subjective (and I agree) decide what is real (which I do not agree). If you believe in God, God is real. If you believe in Aliens, Pink Unicorns and Demons, Then they exist. According to the Satanists and I am at an emotional crossroads at the moment.

Am I wrong? Is there no objective reality? Then how do we gauge anything?
I will not stay in something I dont fully believe in or cannot fully endorse so to speak so I need to know the answers now.

You seem to be confusing your experiences.

The experiences going on within your own mind are personal, subjective, and have no bering on actual physical reality, except to the degree with which you decide to attach some subjective notion to. However, that still does not mean those experiences have any effect on actual physical reality for anyone else.

This "power" you attach to any experience is still only within you, is subjective, and does not originate from anyone or anything outside of you.

If you do think it originates and/or effects the actual physical world, you may be losing touch with reality. If someone actively reinforces this, they may be trying to help you to lose touch with reality, in order to exploit you.

You stated: According to the Satanists and I am at an emotional crossroads at the moment.

This is quite astute and if these people recognize this vulnerability in you... they seem to be giving you a choice; the chance to leave them or give yourself to them completely.

It's like people who "give themselves over to god"... "give all your troubles to god"... it's pretty much the same thing, just a different name. Biblically speaking, I think there is no difference between the characters of satan and god.

I'm inclined to tell you to get away from this reinforcing activity and get your head together. If you are unable to do this on your own, then you should seek help from a professional psychologist.

I am not confused as far as experience vs reality. That is what i was saying, I believe that ritual and magic work but only inside my head, they work on a subjective level and have no bearing on the real world outside of the ritual chamber except for how the ritual leaves me affected.

Satanists are very different than Christians as they do not care if you are one or not, its not a religion of Joiners.

But actually the question I had was answered and explained so well by Morondog and chas that I understand now 100% what I need to do so I thank them for that.
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01-11-2013, 03:58 PM
RE: Objective reality?
Beliefs are only subjectively true. Murder is wrong if you believe it to be. Love is important if you believe it to be. Life has value if you believe it to have value. Assessments of value, meaning, and opinions are always subjective.

Whereas physical facts about the universe are objectively true. Gravity exists. Evolution occurs. My soda can holds held 355 mL of diet cream soda.

What is objectively true is true regardless of feelings and opinions. What you believe doesn't change reality, and reality is the same for everyone whether or not they are capable of recognizing that.

We have our own "internal realities", but they have no impact on what is actually true. We can believe in something - and it is objectively true that we believe in it - but the beliefs themselves are neither true nor false; they are subjective.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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01-11-2013, 04:03 PM
RE: Objective reality?
(01-11-2013 02:46 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(01-11-2013 01:20 PM)Irishdize Wrote:  I would like this to not turn into another debate about Satanism but I really need to understand something I have encountered within it.

I believe in logic, reason, rational thinking, empirical evidence and objective reality. To me, there is a reality that is true regardless of what I experience, 'think', feel, etc, if all human beings ceased to exist tomorrow, the Universe/Nature would go on, that is something I believe in.

I also use this 'belief' in Objective reality to decide if certain ideas are true or false, take Ghosts for example, I do not believe in them, I do believe in subjective experiences and understand that people have experienced what they believe are ghosts but it doesnt mean that they are in REALITY.

I do engage in ritual, take last night for example, Halloween! Smile but anything that happens in my rituals are on a subjective level to me, if I do a spell and it works, it worked to me, for me, I understand that I cannot prove that it worked on an objective level because to me magic is...subjective, lol. Personal. If I talk to my mom who died a couple years ago and she 'talks' back to me, I realize it happened in my own mind. It was a subjective experience and I wont deny the power of that experience just as I wont deny the power of Ritual which some (most) Atheists do,

So, I have encountered within Satanism the belief that there is no such thing as Objective reality, our experiences which are completely subjective (and I agree) decide what is real (which I do not agree). If you believe in God, God is real. If you believe in Aliens, Pink Unicorns and Demons, Then they exist. According to the Satanists and I am at an emotional crossroads at the moment.

Am I wrong? Is there no objective reality? Then how do we gauge anything?
I will not stay in something I dont fully believe in or cannot fully endorse so to speak so I need to know the answers now.

Thanks for your time.
I wonder if what they are actually saying is "reality" (or more accurately, "perceived reality") for any given person includes their subjective reality as well as objective reality. If you believe in a god, then that god is real for you. It influences how you think, choices you make, and how you behave. So, in that sense it is "reality". But I agree with you that there is a true objective reality that is separate from any individual's experiences or perceptions. That's what the word "truth" means to me when we talking about valuing and seeking truth.

I thought that too at first and I could get behind that completely but the man I spoke to who is 'high up' inside the Church of Satan wrote me a letter and said "we do not concern ourselves with what is real and what is not, we each live in our own subjective universe and we are God in that universe"

I am concerned with what is real and what is not. I also do not believe I am a God, I am a man and Yes I do deserve the best in life and with that I feel comes honor and respect from those in my life but I do not wish for people to bow down to me or worship me or what not. I am also not the most powerful thing out there, Nature to me is much more God like than I am.

However, I do of course know that my experiences are subjective in an objective universe. Smile

I admit though I could be misunderstanding usages that are being thrown about which is something that needs to be researched further.
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01-11-2013, 04:12 PM
RE: Objective reality?
(01-11-2013 04:03 PM)Irishdize Wrote:  I admit though I could be misunderstanding usages that are being thrown about which is something that needs to be researched further.

This stuff gets helluva fiddly once you get down to word definitions and such. Good luck Smile

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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01-11-2013, 07:24 PM
RE: Objective reality?
I had the man I have been talking to break down what he means exactly by subjective reality and this is what he said:

I am a Satanist and I adhere to all Satanic principles.
Aside from that, there is a large purple bunny standing next to me, and telling me secrets in a language only I can understand.
Every time he tells me something, it turns out to be really useful, and all my success is due to his advice.
Nobody else can see him, and I know I can't prove he exists- but it's irrelevant, because having him there works for me.
All I need to do is take him out for a walk when I need his assistance.
It's really good for my health to walk every day, so I don't mind doing it.
I feel a lot healthier since he came into my life.
I think he is some kind of phenomenon of quantum physics that nobody understands yet.

____
I think if you believe in a big purple bunny you need to get some psychiatric help, even if the bunny seems to give good advice that works for you. Sigh. I have no real interest in being around people that have these beliefs/feelings or whatever so it looks like on the road I am on now....well, I just have no interest.

So, back to the drawing board, i will figure out where I fit, eventually. Maybe I am an atheist but not a typical one for sure as like Sam Harris, I am spiritual, I do my rituals, I meditate though I admit its not some mystical/transcendental bullshit, Just a way to go within my mind and relax.

Sigh. Alright, thanks for the friendly discussion, Until next time!
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01-11-2013, 08:44 PM
Objective reality?
We only can observe a subjective reality. The objective reality, if there is such a thing, we can only observe
indirectly. What I call objective reality are those "facts" that have been confirmed by others.
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01-11-2013, 09:58 PM
RE: Objective reality?
(01-11-2013 07:24 PM)Irishdize Wrote:  ...
So, back to the drawing board, i will figure out where I fit, eventually.
...

OK.

Good luck.

And when you realise, like the rest of us, that you do not fit...?

Well, I guess, we'll seeya later.

Thumbsup

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01-11-2013, 10:19 PM
RE: Objective reality?
(01-11-2013 09:58 PM)DLJ Wrote:  And when you realise, like the rest of us, that you do not fit...?

Depends what you're trying to fit into... she said Tongue

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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01-11-2013, 11:26 PM
RE: Objective reality?
It's not clearcut. Drinking Beverage

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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02-11-2013, 06:35 AM
RE: Objective reality?
(01-11-2013 09:58 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(01-11-2013 07:24 PM)Irishdize Wrote:  ...
So, back to the drawing board, i will figure out where I fit, eventually.
...

OK.

Good luck.

And when you realise, like the rest of us, that you do not fit...?

Well, I guess, we'll seeya later.

Thumbsup

I assume that those here are Atheists for the most part, that is their correct label. If those here do not fit into that label, then they should go on a spiritual Journey and discover the correct label for themselves Smile

Spirituality is a very important part of my life, always has been...so I have to know where I fit, Its just something I need to do for myself even if it doesnt make sense to you. Smile

So Yes, see ya later. Smile
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