Objective (secular) ethics: Manifesto
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21-04-2015, 12:30 PM
RE: Objective (secular) ethics: Manifesto
(21-04-2015 12:06 PM)dimarch Wrote:  
(20-04-2015 09:43 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Your objective ethics has a fatal flaw. It ignores the individual in favor of the group. The common good is an aggregate of every persons individual good. An ethical system which holds the group as the standard of value will necessarily violate the individual's rights leading to destruction.
Objective ethics is based on freedom and freedom is the universal good. Freedom is where the individual meets with the common because (common) freedom is possible only when everybody is free.

Examples of societies that put the group above the individual: North Korea, Nazi Germany, fascist Italy, The former Soviet Union, East Germany, and every other socialist/communist/collectivist government that has existed. Which one of them would you like to live in?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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21-04-2015, 12:35 PM
RE: Objective (secular) ethics: Manifesto
(21-04-2015 12:06 PM)dimarch Wrote:  
(20-04-2015 09:43 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Your objective ethics has a fatal flaw. It ignores the individual in favor of the group. The common good is an aggregate of every persons individual good. An ethical system which holds the group as the standard of value will necessarily violate the individual's rights leading to destruction.
Objective ethics is based on freedom and freedom is the universal good. Freedom is where the individual meets with the common because (common) freedom is possible only when everybody is free.

Any Objective morality must be based on Man's nature and the requirements that he needs for a proper, flourishing life. Chief among these is individual rights. Any system that places the group or the race or the tribe as the standard of the good will always enslave and destroy the individual. Look at history. Look at the most successful countries throughout history. They all share one thing. They all at least partially, respect the rights of the individual. That is the purpose of government, to protect individual rights. The purpose of a government is to free us from each other and the initiation of force.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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21-04-2015, 01:05 PM
RE: Objective (secular) ethics: Manifesto
(21-04-2015 12:35 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Any Objective morality must be based on Man's nature and the requirements that he needs for a proper, flourishing life.
It does; a flourishing life requires freedom, so man's nature is freedom. Some people, however, still think that man is animal. For them man's nature is survival of the fittest, and his "flourishing life" should be full of violence.

Quote:Look at history. Look at the most successful countries throughout history. They all share one thing. They all at least partially, respect the rights of the individual. That is the purpose of government, to protect individual rights. The purpose of a government is to free us from each other and the initiation of force.
And who will free us from a government?
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21-04-2015, 01:21 PM
RE: Objective (secular) ethics: Manifesto
(17-04-2015 12:55 PM)dimarch Wrote:  Purpose and meaning of the activities of man is to maximize common good.

Who says?

Where does this purpose and meaning come from? Who placed this purpose and meaning on me?
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21-04-2015, 01:32 PM
RE: Objective (secular) ethics: Manifesto
(21-04-2015 01:05 PM)dimarch Wrote:  Some people, however, still think that man is animal.

He is; just one with a greater ability to reason than most other animals.

Quote:For them man's nature is survival of the fittest, and his "flourishing life" should be full of violence.

You do not understand what "survival of the fittest" means. It does not equate to violence.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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21-04-2015, 01:41 PM
RE: Objective (secular) ethics: Manifesto
(21-04-2015 01:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(17-04-2015 12:55 PM)dimarch Wrote:  Purpose and meaning of the activities of man is to maximize common good.

Who says?

Where does this purpose and meaning come from? Who placed this purpose and meaning on me?
They come from man's nature as a free being. To be free is possible only in agreement with others. Those who do not wish to take part in general agreement are choosing violence.
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21-04-2015, 01:50 PM
RE: Objective (secular) ethics: Manifesto
(21-04-2015 01:32 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(21-04-2015 01:05 PM)dimarch Wrote:  For them man's nature is survival of the fittest, and his "flourishing life" should be full of violence.

You do not understand what "survival of the fittest" means. It does not equate to violence.
I did not know that the weak die out voluntarily. Ok.
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21-04-2015, 01:56 PM
RE: Objective (secular) ethics: Manifesto
(21-04-2015 01:41 PM)dimarch Wrote:  
(21-04-2015 01:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Who says?

Where does this purpose and meaning come from? Who placed this purpose and meaning on me?
They come from man's nature as a free being. To be free is possible only in agreement with others. Those who do not wish to take part in general agreement are choosing violence.

I don't see how any of this follows.

Is this meaning and purpose a part of my nature? A product of darwinian evolution?

Or does it only come about when I enter into some agreement with others?
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21-04-2015, 01:59 PM
RE: Objective (secular) ethics: Manifesto
(21-04-2015 01:50 PM)dimarch Wrote:  
(21-04-2015 01:32 PM)unfogged Wrote:  You do not understand what "survival of the fittest" means. It does not equate to violence.
I did not know that the weak die out voluntarily. Ok.

Thank you for confirming that you have no idea what the phrase means.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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21-04-2015, 02:08 PM
RE: Objective (secular) ethics: Manifesto
(21-04-2015 01:05 PM)dimarch Wrote:  
(21-04-2015 12:35 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Any Objective morality must be based on Man's nature and the requirements that he needs for a proper, flourishing life.
It does; a flourishing life requires freedom, so man's nature is freedom. Some people, however, still think that man is animal. For them man's nature is survival of the fittest, and his "flourishing life" should be full of violence.

Quote:Look at history. Look at the most successful countries throughout history. They all share one thing. They all at least partially, respect the rights of the individual. That is the purpose of government, to protect individual rights. The purpose of a government is to free us from each other and the initiation of force.
And who will free us from a government?

Government has a legitimate function: To remove from society, the initiation of force. To act as the defender of individual rights. As soon as governments turn from this function to initiating force against its citizens, as in leveling the playing field by taking from one man and giving to another, then that government is no longer legitimate. So we don't need to be freed from government but from the initiation of force.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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