Occupy the Interstate
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12-07-2016, 11:26 PM
RE: Occupy the Interstate
(12-07-2016 08:45 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(12-07-2016 06:24 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Interesting stats.

It looks like the police are on target to beat last year's quota. Pun intended.

It also seems to make sense to be unarmed.

I wonder if that tells Murikans something?

Dodgy

BULL FUCKING SHIT, Whites also kill other whites more than any other. That "blacks kill blacks more" implies that most blacks are violent. ANOTHER BULLSHIT DODGE.

It STILL remains that blacks are hurt at a higher rate by our justice system and economic inequality.

If everybody, both whites and blacks, say race should NOT be an issue, I am sorry, it does not have to be all whites, but far too many whites are tone deaf to a very real problem, and if you think it is simply all in their head, you are full of shit.

Now, outside of the is issue, the same can be said with any issue. If there were no problems at all, nobody would be bitching, but the fact that people are, means a problem does exist. Humans don't get confrontational if they have resources and stability. If you think blacks are upset for no good reason, that is simply absurd, asinine and flat out ignorant.

It is the same with other species too. When an ecosystem is balanced it remains stable, but if one aspect of it gets lopsided, the system becomes more unstable.

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12-07-2016, 11:28 PM
RE: Occupy the Interstate
(12-07-2016 09:40 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Anecdotes don't mean shit. And looking at outcomes and injecting whatever cause you want is a fallacy.

There is legistlated affirmative action for specific races. Affirmative action is, by definition, discrimination; (another term for it is "positive discrimination.") And discrimination on the basis of race is racism by definition. Therefore the system IS racist, but it's not against blacks. This logic is impregnable.

I agree up to a point.

Where I disagree is that positive discrimination should be a temporary measure to fix a problem.

So, I think your wording should be "in favour of blacks" because is currently is against blacks.

In the past it was other disenfranchised groups e.g. "There's no point giving women the vote because they are not involved in politics enough to understand politics" ... it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that needs to be broken with pro-women discrimination.

Likewise, it used to be argued that there's no point giving blacks an education because they are not educated enough to be educated.

I'm in favour of this kind of discrimination but what's missing seems to be the other part of the equation which is: what are the metrics to determine that the policy has succeeded and at what point should the positive-discrimination policy end?

All this assumes, of course, that 'equality under the law' is part of the given society's vision statement.

If the vision statement is "survival of the fittest" then fuck 'em!

Yes

Which I think is current Republican (and Wall Street, Walmart and NRA etc.) policy.

Sad

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13-07-2016, 12:35 AM
RE: Occupy the Interstate
(12-07-2016 11:28 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(12-07-2016 09:40 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Anecdotes don't mean shit. And looking at outcomes and injecting whatever cause you want is a fallacy.

There is legistlated affirmative action for specific races. Affirmative action is, by definition, discrimination; (another term for it is "positive discrimination.") And discrimination on the basis of race is racism by definition. Therefore the system IS racist, but it's not against blacks. This logic is impregnable.

I agree up to a point.

Where I disagree is that positive discrimination should be a temporary measure to fix a problem.

We do not disagree then. I don't think positive discrimination is inherently bad.
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13-07-2016, 01:28 AM (This post was last modified: 13-07-2016 04:58 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Occupy the Interstate
(12-07-2016 05:02 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Thump Wrote:One thing that jumps out at me is that according to your own numbers above, 40% of all unarmed victims of police killings were black. Given that they only make up about 13% of the population here in America, what do you think that says about police/black relations?

Sure. But that 13% also commit 50% of the crime. So they're far more likely to in contact with Police. 40% of police deaths for a population that does 50% of the crime? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Firstly, according to the DoJ, about 23% of vioent crimes in America are committed by blacks, not 50%. If you're going to throw out numbers, might you do us all the courtesy of citing your sources as you go along?

Secondly, police here often work by profiling, which can be and has been a large issue here. You may or may not have heard down in Kiwiland of how it's practiced here in in America, but you can bet your bottom blacks in America know of it; they suffer it. My brother-in-law has suffered it, as has my nephew. Black man walking in the wrong neighborhood? STOP. Black man driving a high-end auto? STOP. These are not encounters generated by black crime, but by police attitudes.

It sounds to me like correlation doesn't equal causation.

(12-07-2016 05:02 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Thump Wrote:Also -- I certainly wasn't arguing there was a "pandemic", so I'm not sure why you'd mention that replying to me.

That wasn't aimed at you, just the topic in general.

No sweat, then.

(12-07-2016 05:02 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:Black-on-black violence is indeed a much larger issue, but I don't think that invalidates concerns over racist policing. Indeed, because the police are an arm of the government, and because they carry the power of life and death, I think it's vital to Americans of all colors that they carry out their jobs without regard to race.

Agreed. But the way they're going about solving this is wrong.

No argument there. The shootings in Dallas were the act of a depraved man, in my opinion, considering that the protest those officers were guarding was directed at police malfeasance.

Nothing justifies killing folks innocent of wrongdoing, be they police officers or black drivers.
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13-07-2016, 01:31 AM
RE: Occupy the Interstate
(12-07-2016 09:40 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Anecdotes don't mean shit. And looking at outcomes and injecting whatever cause you want is a fallacy.

There is legistlated affirmative action for specific races. Affirmative action is, by definition, discrimination; (another term for it is "positive discrimination.") And discrimination on the basis of race is racism by definition. Therefore the system IS racist, but it's not against blacks. This logic is impregnable.

Yes, because blacks never suffer discrimination outside the organs of government.

Don't you think it's in the best interest of the government to ensure a level playing field?

If the playing field is not level, how would you propose to level it without tilting it back a little?

Short-sighted.
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13-07-2016, 01:46 AM
RE: Occupy the Interstate
(13-07-2016 01:31 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(12-07-2016 09:40 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Anecdotes don't mean shit. And looking at outcomes and injecting whatever cause you want is a fallacy.

There is legistlated affirmative action for specific races. Affirmative action is, by definition, discrimination; (another term for it is "positive discrimination.") And discrimination on the basis of race is racism by definition. Therefore the system IS racist, but it's not against blacks. This logic is impregnable.

Yes, because blacks never suffer discrimination outside the organs of government.

Sarcastic paraphrase/10
.

It is not my observation that blacks suffer discrimination in the US exceptionally more than do other races, no.

Quote:Don't you think it's in the best interest of the government to ensure a level playing field?

Yes.
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13-07-2016, 03:34 AM
RE: Occupy the Interstate
Quote:Firstly, according to the DoJ, about 23% of vioent crime in America is committed by blacks, not 50%. If you're going to throw out numbers, might you do us all the courtesy of citing your sources as you go along?

Secondly, police here often work by profiling, which can be and has been a large issue here. You may or may not have heard down in Kiwiland of how it's practiced here in in America, but you can bet your bottom blacks in America know of it; they suffer it. My brother-in-law has suffered it, as has my nephew. Black man walking in the wrong neighborhood? STOP. Black man driving a high-end auto? STOP. These are not encounters generated by black crime, but by police attitudes.

It sounds to me like correlation doesn't equal causation.

My bad, the stats I was looking at was for homicide only.
tomato sauce

Also, it's closer to 30% (all crime, not just violent crime), It's 50% for murder and robbery. And 30% is still high, it's still over double their percentage of population.

And is profiling really that big of an issue to the average black citizen? Because getting stopped once by that one cop is hardly a pandemic of racist police officers. Obviously if it is far more present than by all means there is a large issue that needs to be discussed. BUT that is not solved by lawless action like sniping police officers, calling for blacks to openly attacked police officers, reach for their guns etc.. or hold large disruptive protests. Because all that does is make enemies.

Again, that isn't an issue of getting a politician to change the law like what the 50's and 60's and all that was about it's about changing opinions and the way they're going about it isn't the way to achieve that.

Quote:Nothing justifies killing folks innocent of wrongdoing, be they police officers or black drivers.

Agreed.

Quote:And it's not just about slavery but all the products of White Supremacy, from Jim Crow to laws which deliberately created ghettos by funneling government-backed loans and subsidies for infrastructure to white neighborhoods for decades, while denying them to black ones. Also there is the major problem of educational disparities, including college, for decades. We as a society have created rotted-out socioeconomic deserts, then tried to blame the predictable results of living in such environments on the victims of that environment. Pointing to "black on black crime" as a "bigger problem" is to divert from the White Supremacist policies that created that environment in the first place.

I'm not saying there's not reasons why they're in the situation they're in.
I'm saying that they're not helping their situation. Instead of putting so much effort into protesting police, protest gangs. Protest local councils for this 'racist' funding you're talking about. The Police are always gonna be there, but you can get rid of the gangs. You can improve infrastructure. If you get rid of gangs you can decrease crime and improve opinions.

But when you have a culture glorifying violence, playing the victim card every 2 seconds, blaming everyone else and not just wanting equality but wanting more 'entitlements' than white people OF COURSE people are going to have these opinions.

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13-07-2016, 11:53 AM (This post was last modified: 13-07-2016 10:23 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Occupy the Interstate
(13-07-2016 03:34 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  My bad, the stats I was looking at was for homicide only.
tomato sauce

Also, it's closer to 30% (all crime, not just violent crime), It's 50% for murder and robbery. And 30% is still high, it's still over double their percentage of population.

Fair enough -- you're right that they're represented disproportionately (though the DoJ info I linked to above says 23% and not 30% for all crime).

(13-07-2016 03:34 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  And is profiling really that big of an issue to the average black citizen?

Yes.

(13-07-2016 03:34 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Because getting stopped once by that one cop is hardly a pandemic of racist police officers.

Once again, I didn't say there is a "pandemic" of racist police officers. I'm not even saying that profiling is prima facie evidence of racism on the part of the officer, although it certainly could be. What I'm saying is that profiling is widespread, and it results in stops initiated upon blacks who are doing nothing at all wrong, which do occasionally go south.

(13-07-2016 03:34 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Obviously if it is far more present than by all means there is a large issue that needs to be discussed.

It is far more present, I think, than you may get from your media there -- and it goddamned well needs more discussion.

(13-07-2016 03:34 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  BUT that is not solved by lawless action like sniping police officers, calling for blacks to openly attacked police officers, reach for their guns etc.. or hold large disruptive protests. Because all that does is make enemies.

Protests are fine; protests are free speech. Protesting on an Interstate is no way to win supporters, and most likely illegal due to lack of a permit. Obviously, violent protest, including murder, is horseshit and unsupportable in my opinion.

(13-07-2016 03:34 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Again, that isn't an issue of getting a politician to change the law like what the 50's and 60's and all that was about it's about changing opinions and the way they're going about it isn't the way to achieve that.

No doubt. I get plenty pissy when stuck in a traffic jam.

(13-07-2016 03:34 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  But when you have a culture glorifying violence,[...]

Black culture doesn't glorify violence. American culture does.

(13-07-2016 03:34 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  [...] playing the victim card every 2 seconds, [...]

Except that the vast majority of blacks don't.

(13-07-2016 03:34 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  [...] blaming everyone else [...]

In American society, the structural racism is such that even whites like myself point to it as something that needs changing. I'm certainly not going to criticize blacks for doing the same thing on their own behalf.

(13-07-2016 03:34 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  [...] and not just wanting equality but wanting more 'entitlements' than white people [...]

What "entitlements" do you have in mind? The black Americans I know just want a fair shake. They want the same opportunity I have to get ahead in life. They largely don't have that, currently.

(13-07-2016 03:34 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  [...] OF COURSE people are going to have these opinions.

Not all opinions are equally justified. When you look at the structural nature of American racism, black criticism seems very justified to me. Affirmative action does, as well, in some cases (access to employment and education, for instance].

Of course blocking traffic and burning stores is no way to win broader support. I agree that those tactics are counterproductive in the end. And it goes without saying that murder is no solution.

But the injustices and structural racism visited upon blacks and Hispanics both in America exist and must be addressed by the political leadership and police departments both. An unfair situation is inherently unstable, and that is what we're seeing right now.
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13-07-2016, 11:58 AM
RE: Occupy the Interstate
(12-07-2016 09:40 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Anecdotes don't mean shit.

That undervalues anecdotal evidence. While anecdotal evidence cannot be used to statistically support any predictions when enough anecdotal evidence accumulates it motivates researchers to do a proper investigation and treatment.

#sigh
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13-07-2016, 12:21 PM
RE: Occupy the Interstate
There was some back and forth on Facebook yesterday that I saw because I am mutual friends with the people having the discussion.

The main two people involved in this discussion are black men living in South Carolina.

One made a point that I found interesting. They were discussing the hypocrisy of BLM based on the fact that they aren't also protesting black on black murder. Basically they were saying that you can't be publicly outraged by the killing of black men by white cops if you aren't at least equally publically outraged by the killing of black civilians by other black civilians. Made me pause a bit when I read their comments. Consider

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