Oh boy......
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31-05-2011, 10:32 AM (This post was last modified: 31-05-2011 12:27 PM by The Doctor.)
Oh boy......
I don't really want too post facebook debates, but this is really outrageous. I changed the name of the person who Im debating too C. They are both creationist sister with their names starting with C.
Quote:C
is eating pizza, watching all sorts of Creation vrs Evolution videos on Netflix (so far "Case for a Creator", "Case for Christianity", and "Dragons and Dinosaurs" have been the best) while getting stuff done around the house. It's nice to have a productive Down Day with nothing planned outside the house. I don't think I've done that in several months, haha. =]Yesterday at 2:50pm · Like ·


C

Adam Evans lol, they have those crazy un-scientific videos. lol A good one is a Flock of Dodos.
Yesterday at 3:02pm · Like

C
Realistically they are every bit as "un-scientific" as evolution is. Actually I have a lot of respect for evolutionists who have been TRULY open to seeing all sides and extensively studying all possibilities between creation and evolution a is. Actually I have a lot of respect for evolutionists who have been TRULY open to seeing all sides and extensively studying all possibilities between creation and evolution and beyond! Why? Because once you've looked at all the information and documentation through unbiased eyes done by both sides, advances in SCIENCE (things *proven* to be true instead of theories), and eye-witness accounts of the world around us, it takes a HECK of a lot more faith to believe that the earth just "happened" and shifted, changed, grew, and evolved into what it is now! I would personally rather take the Bible for fact (which is HAS been proven to be the most accurate piece of older text known to man) and believe that:

C
A- "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." -Gen. 1:1

B- Scientists from all beliefs are finding that the world is actually around 6,000ish years old. They are beginning to recognize that there were discrepancies in previouious carbon dating techniques which automatically discount the idea that the world is "billions of years old".They weren't accounting for the fact that different types of gases escape from materials at different rates. Look it up, pretty fascinating stuff!

B.2- This means that life would have evolved from primordial goo to millions of land and sea creatures, including intelligent human beings, in 6,000 years. How is that possible?

C- Dinosaurs lived at the same time as man. Study the stories and verbal traditions of different tribes, sects, and nationalities even. All of them, across the globe, have some sort of "large creature" story, and many of them drew the animals through petroglyphs (when I was in Utah, I personally saw some of dinosaur footprints) and included their images in construction of their buildings and on pottery among many other artistic and historical expressions. Also, many species who were thought to be extinct millions of years ago (based on discovered fossil position in strata and carbon dating), but are now being re-discovered, still alive. There's a big fish specifically off the coast of Madagascar and a tree in Europe somewhere to name a few.

I was going to go into more, and I am more than willing to talk with anyone who is willing to discuss this subject with an *open* mind. I know what I believe at the moment, yes, but I also know that if I close myself off from other options, whether or not they coincide with my personal presuppositions, then I'm an incredibly foolish individual. A thousand years ago, people swore the world was flat and would laugh off any opposing view. I would hate to be so closed-minded as to slow the progression on my own understanding, let alone the expansion of general knowledge and understanding, the solidifying of what is SCIENCE vrs theory, and would consider myself an utter detriment to society.
Yesterday at 3:44pm · Like

Adam Evans
The Bible is not an fact. It's full of mistakes and contradictions. Also the evolution is a proven fact. We have tons of evidence supporting the fact of evolution. I can show you evidence. You don't have faith to support the Earth is billions of years old. The evidence is ALL AROUND YOU! You just won't accept the evidence because it counters your view.

"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."Stephen Jay Gould, Evolution as Fact and Theory Science and Creationism, (New York: Oxford University Press, 1984)

Our DNA also tells us that we share an common ancestor. You and I share the some DNA with dogs, rats, and daises. A majority of all scientists accept the theory of evolution as fact. Just like the theory of general relativity.
Yesterday at 3:45pm · Like

C
First of all, I would like to see your list of mistakes and contradictions in the Bible. People that did not grow up in the church will reference them sometimes, but I have yet to hear one that can't be cleared up. I honestly would ask that would ask that you share them if you don't mind!

As for evolution, you say the evidence is all around me. Where? I see mirco-evolution on a daily basis, yes, but no evidence whatsoever for macro-evolution. Macro-evolution, being the very base of Evolution science itself should be apparent, but it doesn't exist. Bare with me in this analogy, but it in essence is suggesting that, if left alone long enough and allowed to reproduce, an ice cube could turn into a cherry-flavored popsicle because it's environment was either unable to support plain frozen water or the beings around needed the grape instead of the water. Apply that to a living, breathing organism and that's what macro-evolution expects. Again, demonstrate specifics for me and I am more than willing to listen and investigate.

So many people turn evolution vrs creation into a battle to either prove God's validity or falsity, and while it may have a greater bearing on Christians than others (which I find debatable because, being an atheist yourself, proof that creation was correct would rock your world as much as proof that it's wrong would rock mine), the fact is NOTHING in science should be based off presuppositions. Science is pure fact, removed from emotion or bias, that can be consistently observed, documented, and replicated. Anything that doesn't fit with ALL 3 of those qualifications is merely a theory. And note, in schools they don't teach the SCIENCE of Evolution, they teach the THEORY of Evolution. It's not science until it's adequately proven beyond a doubt to the consensus of the scientific community and then the world.

Interesting thing: Try Googling "science of evolution". The majority of the results re-define it as a theory right there in the header, and a few of the sites are to argue evolution. I would think if a topic such as the "science of evolution" were so heavily supported and widely accepted that there would be less negative results on the main page and more documentation enforcing that it's a SCIENCE instead of a THEORY. Just a thought...
Yesterday at 4:10pm · Like

Adam
Did you really cut and past some talking points??

"B- Scientists from all beliefs are finding that the world is actually around 6,000ish years old. They are beginning to recognize that there were discrepancies in previous carbon dating techniques which automatically discount the idea that the world is "billions of years old".They weren't accounting for the fact that different types of gases escape from materials at different rates. Look it up, pretty fascinating stuff!"

Really??? A lot of scientists? There are more Steves who support evolution than creationism or intelligent design.
http://ncse.com/taking-action/project-steve

In an 1997 poll that only 5% of Scientis support Young Earth Creationism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_su..._evolution

It's nearly 99% of all Earth and Life Scientists are supporters of Evolution.

"B.2- This means that life would have evolved from primordial goo to millions of land and sea creatures, including intelligent human beings, in 6,000 years. How is that possible?"

It's called EVOLUTION! Maybe song will help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOLAGYmUQV0

"C- Dinosaurs lived at the same time as man. Study the stories and verbal traditions of different tribes, sects, and nationalities even. All of them, across the globe, have some sort of "large creature" story, and many of them drew the animals through petroglyphs (when I was in Utah, I personally saw some of dinosaur footprints) and included their images in construction of their buildings and on pottery among many other artistic and historical expressions. Also, many species who were thought to be extinct millions of years ago (based on discovered fossil position in strata and carbon dating), but are now being re-discovered, still alive. There's a big fish specifically off the coast of Madagascar and a tree in Europe somewhere to name a few."

Yes there are living fossils that are still alive. It doesn't mean evolution is false. Like for example the crocodile. The croc hasn't really changed as much do it's ability to survive in great conditions. Why need to adapt when it's fully adapted too environment? That doesn't even intelligent design also. Crocs and Alligators have weaknesses like you can close their Jaws with one hand. Also their eggs require certian temperatures to to produce different types of sex. Mammals like us have a better way to produce children.

Our ancestors did live with big creatures:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolly_mammoth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megatherium

Dragons are a myth. Created when man saw fossils of these creatures and come up with the idea of dragons.
http://humanexperience.stanford.edu/feature-dragons

I do have an open mind, but I not too open where my brain falls out. I would accept your belief if you think one day in creation is millions of years and evolution was part of god's process. Actually most people knew that the earth was an sphere since the ancient Greeks. Good example is Galileo Galilei. Who support the theory that the Earth orbited the Sun and not the other way around. When he published to support the idea. He was sent to jail and condmend as an heretic by the Catholic Church. I base my facts with logic and reason. I would fully support your idea if you can provide my evidence to support your claim, but creationists don't have evidence. Just a bunch an ideas in their hearts and no way to exame their ideas for study.
Yesterday at 4:26pm · Like · 1 person

Adam Evans I will reply to your post soon. You want details. I will give you details. Smile
Yesterday at 4:36pm · Like

C
No, I didn't copy and paste. It showed up late because I wrote and re-wrote some of those parts so much that, after I posted it, I realized some letters got left out and weird punctuation happened, so I deleted it, edited it, and re-posted And I look forward to seeing scientifically documented proof from sites other than Wikipedia (hint hint, haha =p). I'm looking for accredited sources. And though the science stuff is interesting, I'm actually more interested in the contradicting Bible verses you referenced. That's what I want to hear about! =)
Yesterday at 4:44pm · Like

C
So basically, Adam - You're saying that her theories are plausible as long as her theories are the same as yours?

Yes, because that's open minded. Smile
Yesterday at 5:02pm · Like · 1 person

Adam Evans No, only if it's backed by evidence. If you can show me flint arrows into the bones of dinosaurs or something similar to prove evolution wrong. Then the theory will have doubts, but every thing that an IDer or Creationist says is wrong about evolution. There are hundred of facts going against creationist ideas.
Yesterday at 5:05pm · Like

Adam Evans I was an Young Earth Creationist back when I was 5 until I wanted to become an Paleontologist. Yet, I was told by my sunday school teachers to igore those people because god said so!
Yesterday at 5:07pm · Like

C
Adam, you cannot prove a negative. You can't prove that ID is wrong, and we can't prove that Evolution is wrong. The simple fact is that the odds of Evolution happening are far far out there, and we have a document we treat as authentic that etails the opposite. Evolution, meanwhile, is a case of the blind leading the blind in theory after theory.

The idea of evolution is to contradict the idea of ID. Hence the heated debate... because no athiest wants to admit that ID is a possibility. It goes against your whole basis. Smile
Yesterday at 5:14pm · Like

Adam Evans We are not saying it's not. We are saying. You don't have the evidence to show ID to be proven.
Yesterday at 5:28pm · Like

C‎... Amen. Big Grin
Yesterday at 7:13pm · Like

Adam Evans Also the idea that the Earth is BILLIONS of Years old. The age of he Earth is the basis of all Science as well.
Yesterday at 8:49pm · Like


Adam Evans There are 1,530 Contradictions:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_book.html
Yesterday at 8:57pm · Like

C
Nobody's trashing Evolution. The point is simply that it was a heroic attempt to explain the existence of the world and life "realistically"... Our opinion is that Evolution was a good try, but is still only a somewhat wild hypothesis that has yet to be proved to any degree between species.

In essence, I'm not at all saying that Evolution is wrong. I just believe it's wrong.
That, and the theory is far too unsound to teach in schools as official "science."
20 hours ago · Like

Adam Evans
C evolution has been proven with dna evidence and transitional fossils. Also evolution is happening right now. We got bugs evolving to adapt agast our posions. We have viruses and bacteria evolving to make our drugs useless.
13 hours ago via Facebook Mobile · Like

C Hahaha proven. Not particularly. Sorry, bugs and poisons don't prove anything about Lucy and our supposed primate ancestors.

Betsy- It takes a lot of faith to believe that my earliest ancestor is primordial goo. That takes a little too much faith without reason, at least on my part. Smile
6 hours ago · Like

Adam Evans
Then C, you are denial because you don't want to face the idea that your religion is probally wrong on the creation story. Even I give you evidence showing you evolution. You WILL DENY IT!

It does not take faith to support that idea. Faith requires no evidence and yet those ideas have backing of evidence.

"I refuse to prove that I exist. For proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing." ~ God
6 hours ago · Like

C
Adam, you're convinced of your point because in your opinion the evidence leads to one conclusion, but when it comes down to it your Evolution is still a theory, as is Creation. I would appreciate it if you would stop jumping to conclusions based on your opinions, because I've denied nothing.

I just tell you what I believe. If you would stick to talking about what you believe instead of telling me I'm wrong, I would respect your opinions and points more.

C
There is circumstantial evidence surrounding Creation as well as some surrounding Evolution. You consider your evidence valid, as I consider mine. It's a differing of opinions, nothing more.

And I said faith without reason. Smile I believe in God because I've seen evidence of God.
6 hours ago · Like

Adam Evans The reason I will not stop this because I don't want to see our future children being told that an (Christian, Jewish, Islamic) god and an 2,000 year old book is right and ignore scientists because they have information saying that the book is wrong.
6 hours ago · Like

C
Why can't we just admit the truth? They're both theories. We don't know for sure how the earth came to be. Treat them as theories and let people decide for themselves. That's an open mind for you. Smile

And I don't want our future children being told that there's no reason to care about morals or decency, we're alone in the universe, there's nothing after death, and our only purpose on this earth is to be stupid and then head into oblivion at the end of our days.

Whatever happened to agreeing to disagree?
6 hours ago · Like

Adam Evans
The Creation story is not an theory. You have no scientific evidence to support creationism or intelligent design. This is why we don't teach creationism in schools. Creationism/ID is not SCIENCE! It's religion and you CANT mix Science and religion together.

You don't NEED god or any holy book to be moral and good. I am a good and moral person my self and I don't need some sort of imaginary authority figure to tell me how to live my life. I already know how to live my life.

We're NOT alone in the universe. Yet, that is the only faith I will admit. We live in an universe has has about 100-200 BILLION of galaxies and each galaxy has about 500 BILLION of stars. A current survey suggests that our own galaxy may have at least 50 BILLION or more planets.

That means 2.5e+35 or 2,500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 PLANETS in the entire universe.

So yeah, there is a great probability that we are not alone in the universe.

If there is no life after death. Why not enjoy the short life you have? Your life is short and you should experience it fully. Having an afterlife just discourage enjoying life. For you life is just a damn inconvenient detour to your heaven.

I can agree to disagree with god, but creationism no.
5 hours ago · Like

C Then you're closed minded.
5 hours ago · Like

C ID is as much science as Evolution. I consider your evidence invalid, as you consider mine. Your opinion that something is insubstantial doesn't make it insubstantial. Speak for yourself.

Creationism isn't taught in schools because people are afraid of God.
5 hours ago · Like

C
I think we're alone in the universe, but I won't commit to that because it's impossible to prove a negative. Like God not existing. Smile

I am enjoying the short life I have. I'm enjoying a life filled with meaning, purpose, mysteries, and many a worthy challenge in rising to a higher standard that our world has long since forgotten.

For me, life is an experience. Stick to talking about what life is to you, Adam, and don't condescend to thinking you know what it means to others. Life is an adventure to me, a tantalizing journey to figure out what comes next, an avenue to dream big and go places nobody would expect.

Life is beautiful... and if life is this great, I can't imagine how wonderful Heaven will be. Smile
5 hours ago · Like

Adam Evans
How im I close minded? Because I deny a god and I think rational and logical things? I also use Occam's razor to find more simpler and rational explanations on how the world works.

Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor[1]), often expressed in Latin as the lex parsimoniae, translating to law of parsimony, law of economy or law of succinctness, is a principle that generally recommends selecting the competing hypothesis that makes the fewest new assumptions, when the hypotheses are equal in other respects.[2] For instance, they must both sufficiently explain available data in the first place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

ID is an invalid science. They claim that life is too mechanical and that life need a creator. ID is basically back door creationism. Who leads the ID movement? The Evangelical church organisations like His Place. You do know how much I wanted to laugh when Pastor Bruce put that trailer with Ben Stein's Flunk movie. Also when an IDer say "SEE! This does prove of an designer." A Biologist will look at it and say. "Well? You are wrong and here is my evidence to counter your idea." Then the ID can not find away to counter the biologist.

Creationist has no EVIDENCE to counter any claims of Geologists, Paleontologist, Anthropologist, Biologists, and etc.

Creationism is like homeopathy. They are all just diluted substances trying to pass on as science. If you views were in the lead in the world. We won't have classes offering Science. All we would have is Math, English, History, and Theology. Why need to teach science? When the Bible tells us everything!

I ask you C and C T Would you believe in Christianity if you were born in Egypt? Would you believe in Christianity if you were born in Japan? Would you believe in Christianity if you were born in an Mexico during the reign of the Maya's before the Spanish arrival?

Have you ever once been a skeptic of your own faith?

What makes all these creation myths wrong?
http://www.crystalinks.com/creationcountries.html
49 minutes ago · Like

C
Your denial will take you somewhere very unpleasant someday, Adam, and I don't mean in the next life. I'm sorry for that, very truly.

I believe in Christianity because I learned the truths of it from my parents, who carefully showed me all they knew and then turned me loose to decide things for myself.
In my teens I decided I couldn't stand Christianity or the Christian church because they were hypocritical, full of ritualistic emptiness, and based off of presuppositions that were passed down through generations instead of gained over time and effort in analyzing all the possibilities with an open mind. I was a product of the cynicism on the internet, and it taught me that intolerance is a crime.

Because of this, I rebelled against my family and their religion for years, only retaining the knowledge that if there was a God out there, he would care about me as if I were his own child.
Then a miracle happened to me, and I couldn't ignore him anymore. I realized that he was in my life, even when I'd pushed him away he was blessing me endlessly all along.

I've taken logic and debate courses, and I always had been fascinated with controversial topics, so I started researching what I'd grown up believing, and logically the concepts I'd inherited from my parents and my Christianity remained sound and believable. I similarly analyzed Evolution, and discovered that much of what's taught in school textbooks is generalized and downright fabricated, the blanks are filled in by theories rather than hard evidence, and the odds of Evolution "science" working out the way it supposedly did are astronomical.

And for the record, you regularly break the very first rule of logical debate, known as Ad Hominem. In the spirit of your quoting and linking, should you be at all interested, I call out my first witness:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies...minem.html

Also, I see no point in your question of my location relating to my religion. I was fortunate to learn the technical aspects of the bible from two intelligent people who studied it critically for years, and my religious beliefs have nothing to do with my location. If it means anything to you, I came originally from Oregon. (?)

Yes, I have been a skeptic of my own faith, many many many times and for many years at a time.
No, I don't blindly believe what my church tells me to believe.
Yes I believe in a God, in rational and logical things.

No, you are not open minded.
You would be pressing this agenda for three possible reasons:
1) You're interested in hearing other possible truths.
2) You believe it's your duty to change my mind.
3) You enjoy conflict and controversy.

We have ruled out number one, and I'm not sure you're arrogant or naive enough to be going for number 2, so I can only conclude that the final option is the true one.

Also, you generalize very often, and that's another logic fallacy. You may say that all salesmen are crooks because all the ones you've met are, but that doesn't necessarily mean that every salesman in the world is a crook. Such is also the case concerning your typical Creationist being naive and unbased.

Your point about school is irrelevant because I simply don't care. I'm not pushing for Creationism or Christianity in schools.
I'm just tired of being discriminated against because of my beliefs.

I'll thank you to be fair towards opposing beliefs. Smile
21 minutes ago · Like

Adam Evans You are not being discriminated for your beliefs. We just view Creationists in the same boat for the people who think that aliens built the pyramids.
3 minutes ago · Like

Oh my wife claims I am attacking her friends for their good realistic beliefs. An attack on their views is an attack on my wife. Tongue

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“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” ~ Gautama Buddha
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31-05-2011, 11:52 AM
RE: Oh boy......
Wow , that was just painful to read - how the heck did you manage ?!
It was an almost stereotypical conversation from the ID to the oppression bit.

How are your wife's friends beliefs "good" or "realistic" ???

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

Proud of my genetic relatives Big Grin
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31-05-2011, 12:04 PM
RE: Oh boy......
I love how the minute you challenge a point, it's "attacking beliefs" or "discriminating against one for their beliefs". No, we're merely questioning why you believe that, and expecting you to have a rational, logical answer. I'm amazed you were able to keep that going for so long!
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31-05-2011, 12:12 PM
 
RE: Oh boy......
*bashing head into desk* At times like this, I wish I had a god. Then religious crusades would be possible. Maybe thats the concussion speaking.
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31-05-2011, 12:17 PM (This post was last modified: 31-05-2011 12:22 PM by The Doctor.)
RE: Oh boy......
(31-05-2011 11:52 AM)gaglamesh731 Wrote:  How are your wife's friends beliefs "good" or "realistic" ???

I'm married too an Young Earth Creationist.

Did some editing. I guess there were more "...see more" parts were still there.

[Image: buddhasig.png]
“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” ~ Gautama Buddha
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31-05-2011, 12:23 PM
RE: Oh boy......
That's my "pull out a blunt object and bash their heads in repeatedly" moment. When they make some unsupported, outlandish claim followed by "look it up" and "you should read this sometime."

It's like walking into Einstein's lab and going "Um, I don't know if you know this, but E can't equal MC squared, ok? Those are all letters and you can't do math with letters. You should really read this Physics book sometime, by this 3rd grader who claims letters are like cookies. It's fascinating."


And remember:

Open minded = you are willing to accept my theory without question, while I refuse to even look at yours.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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01-06-2011, 04:55 AM
RE: Oh boy......
(31-05-2011 12:17 PM)The Doctor Wrote:  
(31-05-2011 11:52 AM)gaglamesh731 Wrote:  How are your wife's friends beliefs "good" or "realistic" ???

I'm married too an Young Earth Creationist.

Did some editing. I guess there were more "...see more" parts were still there.

Did not take you for a sado-masochist Tongue (I'm just being an ass)

But seriously , doesn't seem fair that you get accused for questioning somebody else's ideas that are some how "good" by some default arbitrary concoction.

Still , good job for keeping your composure and having the patience to present your evidence.

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

Proud of my genetic relatives Big Grin
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01-06-2011, 05:36 AM
RE: Oh boy......
I didn't even read it all... I'm not sure I want to... Mah brain hurtz...

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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