Oh, man, Onan
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13-03-2015, 03:52 AM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(12-03-2015 10:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(11-03-2015 01:14 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  The problem is that masturbation is linked to sex, and is heavily frowned upon because it's not sex with one's spouse.



I don't see why it should lead to any guilt, so long as all parties are consenting and you're not violating any vows you made. The Abrahamic religions, however, disagree.

Masturbating is pretty much ubiquitous among humans, yet everything I've ever heard about it from a Christian standpoint has been guilt and/or condemnation.

Perhaps I can enlighten you, for again, it sounds like the church you were in was that, guilt and condemnation.

So let me ask you, is it meant to cause guilt and condemnation to tell someone about a healthy lifestyle or unhealthy lifestyle? Am I trying to cause my kids guilt and condemnation if I encourage them not to shoot heroin? (Yes, Robby, of course I am if I threaten them with Hell and etc. and I don't do that garbage in this context.)

Google a bit about masturbation and sexual expression in marriage. You may have some data I haven't yet seen, and I'm open-minded here, but the few studies I remember seeing demonstrated that men or women who masturbate have marital sex less frequently with their spouses. Same with porn and porn with masturbation.

Now, before you argue with me--remember any personal experience you may have had. If I masturbate five minutes before my wife asks me for sex--and the Bible says I am to pleasure her with sex if she requests it--and I love obeying God's commands! -- you do the refractory math. Drinking Beverage
From my christian perspective: I agree to a point though I see it more like alcohol. Drinking alcohol is not a sin its the idolizing of alcohol thats a sin. What that trqnslates into is the need to get drunk if you cant control yourself and know when is a good time to drink then it becomes a sin. Example: at a party no responsibilities that drinking may inflict with. Not a sin its okay to get drunk. Watching my new 6 month old nephew but god damn I need that twelve pack in my veins. Sin it is NOT okay to drink. Same with masturbating know when to do it, (and dont watch porn thats adultery, and also there was a study in psychology we went over that showed that a person who watched porn regularly was 11 times more likely to cheat than his counterpart that only watched porn occasionally. And was 22(23?) times more likely to cheat than a person that had never watched porn[notice that nothing is said about masturbating just porn]) I mean wait for times that you know its not going to affect you and your significant others sex drives. (For example when your not going to see her/him anytime soon)
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13-03-2015, 06:08 AM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(12-03-2015 10:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  So let me ask you, is it meant to cause guilt and condemnation to tell someone about a healthy lifestyle or unhealthy lifestyle? Am I trying to cause my kids guilt and condemnation if I encourage them not to shoot heroin?

If you could demonstrate that masturbation were unhealthy, I'd give the analogy more credit, but that's something you're assuming.


(12-03-2015 10:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  (Yes, Robby, of course I am if I threaten them with Hell and etc. and I don't do that garbage in this context.)

Regardless of what you do, it's what the Bible says. Not specifically about masturbation, of course, but the Bible does threaten with hell. And, again, I've never heard Christian organizations flat-out condone masturbation. It's either quietly swept under the rug or overtly condemned.


(12-03-2015 10:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Google a bit about masturbation and sexual expression in marriage. You may have some data I haven't yet seen, and I'm open-minded here, but the few studies I remember seeing demonstrated that men or women who masturbate have marital sex less frequently with their spouses. Same with porn and porn with masturbation.

How do you know you're not mixing up cause and effect? Do they have sex less because of lots of masturbation, or are they masturbating because of a lack of sex? I don't know about you, but I jerk off when I get hungry.


(12-03-2015 10:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Now, before you argue with me--remember any personal experience you may have had. If I masturbate five minutes before my wife asks me for sex--and the Bible says I am to pleasure her with sex if she requests it--and I love obeying God's commands! -- you do the refractory math. Drinking Beverage

Anecdotally? Well, you asked:

(Spoilered for TMI for everyone else, but hey, read it if you want Tongue)
Last week, I jerked off and then had sex with my wife less than an hour later to the point of climax for both of us. Three different times that week. Seriously.

So, I seriously don't see this as any type of contradiction or dereliction of my duties.
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13-03-2015, 06:20 AM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(12-03-2015 07:35 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(12-03-2015 05:49 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  If that's the kind of stuff you heard about masturbation, you were in one heckuva wacky church, Robby.

Masturbation isn't a mortal sin. Masturbation is frequently and obviously accompanied by fantasy and lust. Abstinence does make the heart grow fonder. Married and singles alike in my church are encouraged to avoid masturbation, but it's not something we even talk about frequently. Church members actually request that we preach on sexuality more often than we do for the reasons you've cited.

God made sex. God gave Adam and Eve to one another but never said, "Oh, no, I married you together but don't do THAT."

Sex is meant to be enjoyed without guilt. What increases guilt is lack of trust. Trust and sexuality are in a virtuous cycle (pun not intended) in a trusting marriage of fidelity. (And what a shame to need to write those expressions of marriage, since many marriages today are in no way trustworthy.)

In other words and to sum, I'm not buying all you're selling about religion, sex and guilt, because absolutely, religion bears some burden here, but indulgence outside marriage can lead to guilt (for those of us who still have a tender conscience without religion).


So what I hear you saying - is it's OK to wank off -- but only as long as you don't really enjoy it......

That about the nut of it???

The quote tag mis-fired in your post OB, I was thinking- you go to a church? I would love to hear some of those war stories. Laugh out load

Yeah - was in a hurry yesterday.....

I was forced as a kid to go to church. I was always waiting for the "gotcha" - like when you find out Santa Claus was b.s. - I figured this "God" feller must fit in the same category. Think about the similarities --- spooky mutherfuckers who know everything you're doing - awarding or punishing at whim......

I figured there were too many similarities for it to be a coincidence. I quit going as soon as I moved out of my parents house at 17. Never attended a service again, even though I live practically next door to a church.

I did infuriate the youth pastor. I worked all week to formulate at least one question he couldn't answer.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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13-03-2015, 09:43 AM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(13-03-2015 06:08 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(12-03-2015 10:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  So let me ask you, is it meant to cause guilt and condemnation to tell someone about a healthy lifestyle or unhealthy lifestyle? Am I trying to cause my kids guilt and condemnation if I encourage them not to shoot heroin?

If you could demonstrate that masturbation were unhealthy, I'd give the analogy more credit, but that's something you're assuming.


(12-03-2015 10:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  (Yes, Robby, of course I am if I threaten them with Hell and etc. and I don't do that garbage in this context.)

Regardless of what you do, it's what the Bible says. Not specifically about masturbation, of course, but the Bible does threaten with hell. And, again, I've never heard Christian organizations flat-out condone masturbation. It's either quietly swept under the rug or overtly condemned.


(12-03-2015 10:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Google a bit about masturbation and sexual expression in marriage. You may have some data I haven't yet seen, and I'm open-minded here, but the few studies I remember seeing demonstrated that men or women who masturbate have marital sex less frequently with their spouses. Same with porn and porn with masturbation.

How do you know you're not mixing up cause and effect? Do they have sex less because of lots of masturbation, or are they masturbating because of a lack of sex? I don't know about you, but I jerk off when I get hungry.


(12-03-2015 10:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Now, before you argue with me--remember any personal experience you may have had. If I masturbate five minutes before my wife asks me for sex--and the Bible says I am to pleasure her with sex if she requests it--and I love obeying God's commands! -- you do the refractory math. Drinking Beverage

Anecdotally? Well, you asked:

(Spoilered for TMI for everyone else, but hey, read it if you want Tongue)
Last week, I jerked off and then had sex with my wife less than an hour later to the point of climax for both of us. Three different times that week. Seriously.

So, I seriously don't see this as any type of contradiction or dereliction of my duties.

I understand. Obviously, people might masturbate more if their partners aren't having sex with them. Masturbation may have no deleterious effect on you (you big stud, you) however, lust certainly can when indulged in, and the point the newbie made regarding infidelity linked to infidelity fantasies is simple yet profound--and was Jesus's point.

Some spouses ask their partners -- and are hurt -- saying "Don't I satisfy you?" and their partners are secret masturbators. It's about how you treat others and not just whether you abuse yourself. Pun intended.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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13-03-2015, 09:58 AM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(10-03-2015 07:02 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Onan wasn't killed for beating off, he was killed for pulling out.
Yes; "Onanism" is the failure to fulfill one's duty to impregnate a woman. In this case, to "raise up children" to his dead brother, which implied Onan had to help raise / support them, which he didn't want to do, probably already having a bunch of his own. So he pulled out, and god smote him. Which, when you think of it, is probably the only instance in the Bible where someone was punished for NOT seeing sex through to orgasm. Or for not having proper sexual technique, if you prefer.

The social reason for this rule (the real reason in other words, not the alleged theological reason) was to maintain family inheritance structures within a patriarchal society and to produce children who would be obligated to share in the care of their mother when she was elderly. This also explains the shaming and stigma surrounding "barrenness", which many women in some parts of the world labor under to this day. Not having children in the approved contexts is seen as killing the unborn, killing off family lines, and wasting the labors of past generations as there's no one to inherit the land and livestock. Inheritance was a mechanism of immortality, especially before the concept of heaven as we know it was conceived of and developed.

Thankfully we have better societal arrangements overall these days, so why one would even want to try to take lessons from these primitive societies is beyond me.
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13-03-2015, 10:17 AM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(13-03-2015 09:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Some spouses ask their partners -- and are hurt -- saying "Don't I satisfy you?" and their partners are secret masturbators. It's about how you treat others and not just whether you abuse yourself. Pun intended.
Monogamy is simply a recognition that lovers are so wired for jealousy that jealousy becomes a huge problem in spite of what they may intellectually think about sex. To carry it to the extreme, though, that you can't enjoy sex even by yourself, seems a bridge too far. In my experience most wives are not that reliably interested in being sexually available to their husbands whenever they desire release, and are probably secretly grateful that their husbands DO beat off as long as it doesn't interfere with them getting the attention they actually want, when they want it.

I actually have more of an objection in the other direction. As withheld as the women in my life have been sexually (for various reasons, and they all eventually turn out to have a personal list all their very own) I would be moderately offended to find my wife plowing her own field when she knows full well I'm always ready for action. As Billy Crystal said, women need a reason to have sex; men just need a place.

Mercifully at my age one's libido is not the constant hectoring annoyance it once was anyway.
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13-03-2015, 10:51 AM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(12-03-2015 10:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Google a bit about masturbation and sexual expression in marriage. You may have some data I haven't yet seen, and I'm open-minded here, but the few studies I remember seeing demonstrated that men or women who masturbate have marital sex less frequently with their spouses. Same with porn and porn with masturbation.

Citation, please. I am curious which particular study you are thinking about.

(13-03-2015 03:52 AM)A New Hope Wrote:  .... and also there was a study in psychology we went over that showed that a person who watched porn regularly was 11 times more likely to cheat than his counterpart that only watched porn occasionally. And was 22(23?) times more likely to cheat than a person that had never watched porn[notice that nothing is said about masturbating just porn]) I mean wait for times that you know its not going to affect you and your significant others sex drives. (For example when your not going to see her/him anytime soon)

Again citation. There is a bunch of junk out there and it is easier if you simply provide the exact study you are thinking of.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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13-03-2015, 11:15 AM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(13-03-2015 09:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Some spouses ask their partners -- and are hurt -- saying "Don't I satisfy you?" and their partners are secret masturbators. It's about how you treat others and not just whether you abuse yourself.

So, no harm no foul? If it isn't having an effect, then there's no problem?


(13-03-2015 09:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Pun intended.

Tongue
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16-03-2015, 10:33 AM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(13-03-2015 09:58 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(10-03-2015 07:02 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Onan wasn't killed for beating off, he was killed for pulling out.
Yes; "Onanism" is the failure to fulfill one's duty to impregnate a woman. In this case, to "raise up children" to his dead brother, which implied Onan had to help raise / support them, which he didn't want to do, probably already having a bunch of his own. So he pulled out, and god smote him. Which, when you think of it, is probably the only instance in the Bible where someone was punished for NOT seeing sex through to orgasm. Or for not having proper sexual technique, if you prefer.

The social reason for this rule (the real reason in other words, not the alleged theological reason) was to maintain family inheritance structures within a patriarchal society and to produce children who would be obligated to share in the care of their mother when she was elderly. This also explains the shaming and stigma surrounding "barrenness", which many women in some parts of the world labor under to this day. Not having children in the approved contexts is seen as killing the unborn, killing off family lines, and wasting the labors of past generations as there's no one to inherit the land and livestock. Inheritance was a mechanism of immortality, especially before the concept of heaven as we know it was conceived of and developed.

Thankfully we have better societal arrangements overall these days, so why one would even want to try to take lessons from these primitive societies is beyond me.

That's a little dismissive since in this case, Onan's children would have been the antecedent of Jesus Christ. The next in line... became David... Jeconiah... Jesus.

Quote:so why one would even want to try to take lessons from these primitive societies is beyond me.

To be aware of our ever-present presentist biases. If you REALLY feel that way, you should protest when ethnic groups move to other lands and insist on putting out flags and having awareness days about their ancient, noble cultures. But I don't think you feel that way and would cut off that kind of xenophobia.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-03-2015, 05:16 PM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(16-03-2015 10:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(13-03-2015 09:58 AM)mordant Wrote:  Yes; "Onanism" is the failure to fulfill one's duty to impregnate a woman. In this case, to "raise up children" to his dead brother, which implied Onan had to help raise / support them, which he didn't want to do, probably already having a bunch of his own. So he pulled out, and god smote him. Which, when you think of it, is probably the only instance in the Bible where someone was punished for NOT seeing sex through to orgasm. Or for not having proper sexual technique, if you prefer.

The social reason for this rule (the real reason in other words, not the alleged theological reason) was to maintain family inheritance structures within a patriarchal society and to produce children who would be obligated to share in the care of their mother when she was elderly. This also explains the shaming and stigma surrounding "barrenness", which many women in some parts of the world labor under to this day. Not having children in the approved contexts is seen as killing the unborn, killing off family lines, and wasting the labors of past generations as there's no one to inherit the land and livestock. Inheritance was a mechanism of immortality, especially before the concept of heaven as we know it was conceived of and developed.

Thankfully we have better societal arrangements overall these days, so why one would even want to try to take lessons from these primitive societies is beyond me.

That's a little dismissive since in this case, Onan's children would have been the antecedent of Jesus Christ. The next in line... became David... Jeconiah... Jesus.

Quote:so why one would even want to try to take lessons from these primitive societies is beyond me.

To be aware of our ever-present presentist biases. If you REALLY feel that way, you should protest when ethnic groups move to other lands and insist on putting out flags and having awareness days about their ancient, noble cultures. But I don't think you feel that way and would cut off that kind of xenophobia.

It's not xenophobic when you're against or equally protesting your own societies cultures and traditions being honored. Tradition is a moral value some people have and others don't, conservatives happen to value it a lot more.

Still this idea of Onan's children "would" blank. I'm still not sure why if he as described pulled out, his brothers wife wouldn't of had still close to an equal chance of getting pregnant had he not pulled out. Because that's actually how sexuality works as there are sperm from previous ejaculations that will transfer through pre-ejaculatory fluids during sex.

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