Oh, man, Onan
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17-03-2015, 11:58 AM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(16-03-2015 05:16 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(16-03-2015 10:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  That's a little dismissive since in this case, Onan's children would have been the antecedent of Jesus Christ. The next in line... became David... Jeconiah... Jesus.


To be aware of our ever-present presentist biases. If you REALLY feel that way, you should protest when ethnic groups move to other lands and insist on putting out flags and having awareness days about their ancient, noble cultures. But I don't think you feel that way and would cut off that kind of xenophobia.

It's not xenophobic when you're against or equally protesting your own societies cultures and traditions being honored. Tradition is a moral value some people have and others don't, conservatives happen to value it a lot more.

Still this idea of Onan's children "would" blank. I'm still not sure why if he as described pulled out, his brothers wife wouldn't of had still close to an equal chance of getting pregnant had he not pulled out. Because that's actually how sexuality works as there are sperm from previous ejaculations that will transfer through pre-ejaculatory fluids during sex.

The Bible doesn't say whether Onan used coitus interruptus. Again, however, at TTA we're focused on minutiae. The point is Jesus was to be Onan's descendant.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-03-2015, 02:28 PM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(17-03-2015 11:58 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-03-2015 05:16 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It's not xenophobic when you're against or equally protesting your own societies cultures and traditions being honored. Tradition is a moral value some people have and others don't, conservatives happen to value it a lot more.

Still this idea of Onan's children "would" blank. I'm still not sure why if he as described pulled out, his brothers wife wouldn't of had still close to an equal chance of getting pregnant had he not pulled out. Because that's actually how sexuality works as there are sperm from previous ejaculations that will transfer through pre-ejaculatory fluids during sex.

The Bible doesn't say whether Onan used coitus interruptus. Again, however, at TTA we're focused on minutiae. The point is Jesus was to be Onan's descendant.

It specifically says he was to be Jesus's Descendant? When was that? and where?

But I guess I don't get how you can deny this about Onan when you proclaim to take the bible literal except when it's being poetic or so. The lines are that went onto his wife, or depending on translations, when he slept with his brothers wife, and they basically all go on to say he spilled his seed on the ground. To deny what is occurring is being internally deceitful.

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18-03-2015, 10:03 AM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(17-03-2015 02:28 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(17-03-2015 11:58 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The Bible doesn't say whether Onan used coitus interruptus. Again, however, at TTA we're focused on minutiae. The point is Jesus was to be Onan's descendant.

It specifically says he was to be Jesus's Descendant? When was that? and where?

But I guess I don't get how you can deny this about Onan when you proclaim to take the bible literal except when it's being poetic or so. The lines are that went onto his wife, or depending on translations, when he slept with his brothers wife, and they basically all go on to say he spilled his seed on the ground. To deny what is occurring is being internally deceitful.

I'm not being deceitful to you or to me. One possibility is coitus interruptus, of course. I'm not sure why that matters. The Bible doesn't say God doesn't understand the difference between effective and ineffective contraception, it says Onan was punished for willful disobedience. Despite the never-ending claims made here of teams of competing authors, the Bible is remarkably consistent, Genesis to Revelation, regarding God punishing people who disobey His commands.

The fellow who replaced Onan was an antecedent of Jesus in the genealogies, yes. The problem is not insoluble.

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18-03-2015, 10:59 AM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(18-03-2015 10:03 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(17-03-2015 02:28 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It specifically says he was to be Jesus's Descendant? When was that? and where?

But I guess I don't get how you can deny this about Onan when you proclaim to take the bible literal except when it's being poetic or so. The lines are that went onto his wife, or depending on translations, when he slept with his brothers wife, and they basically all go on to say he spilled his seed on the ground. To deny what is occurring is being internally deceitful.

I'm not being deceitful to you or to me. One possibility is coitus interruptus, of course. I'm not sure why that matters. The Bible doesn't say God doesn't understand the difference between effective and ineffective contraception, it says Onan was punished for willful disobedience. Despite the never-ending claims made here of teams of competing authors, the Bible is remarkably consistent, Genesis to Revelation, regarding God punishing people who disobey His commands.

The fellow who replaced Onan was an antecedent of Jesus in the genealogies, yes. The problem is not insoluble.

So that story cannot be used to justify opposition to masturbation or coitus interruptus since that's not what it's about.

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18-03-2015, 03:42 PM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(18-03-2015 10:03 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(17-03-2015 02:28 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It specifically says he was to be Jesus's Descendant? When was that? and where?

But I guess I don't get how you can deny this about Onan when you proclaim to take the bible literal except when it's being poetic or so. The lines are that went onto his wife, or depending on translations, when he slept with his brothers wife, and they basically all go on to say he spilled his seed on the ground. To deny what is occurring is being internally deceitful.

I'm not being deceitful to you or to me. One possibility is coitus interruptus, of course. I'm not sure why that matters. The Bible doesn't say God doesn't understand the difference between effective and ineffective contraception, it says Onan was punished for willful disobedience. Despite the never-ending claims made here of teams of competing authors, the Bible is remarkably consistent, Genesis to Revelation, regarding God punishing people who disobey His commands.

The fellow who replaced Onan was an antecedent of Jesus in the genealogies, yes. The problem is not insoluble.

And this is what I've been bringing up.. it's not really disobedience as she likely could of been impregnated. It makes no sense for a supposedly human creator being that would know sexual reproduction perfectly to view it as actual disobedience.

Sure Onan would think it's going to definitively prevent pregnancy, and likely would his fellow stone aged/bronze aged people. It just shows off ignorance or weakness that doesn't make sense for a God to have. And that is a consistent case in the bible.

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19-03-2015, 10:25 AM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
I don't understand what you think about this, Clyde,

"But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother."

The next verse amplifies:

"What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death [also]."

You have two choices, you can take that as a) Onan was a crappy provider for his family/genealogy or that everything in general Onan did was wicked, as he was also slain as was Er for wickedness and not coitus interruptus.

I think the problem lies in that you don't see that the consistent teaching of the Bible is attitude and not just Law and statutes. Onan's attitude lacked.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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19-03-2015, 11:12 AM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(19-03-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I don't understand what you think about this, Clyde,

"But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother."

The next verse amplifies:

"What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death [also]."

You have two choices, you can take that as a) Onan was a crappy provider for his family/genealogy or that everything in general Onan did was wicked, as he was also slain as was Er for wickedness and not coitus interruptus.

I think the problem lies in that you don't see that the consistent teaching of the Bible is attitude and not just Law and statutes. Onan's attitude lacked.

It's a mental disobedience yes... the problem is here how physically she still may of been as easily impregnated by his actions. It reflects people who don't understand all that much about biology, not the processes of the creator of life.

And you highlight the other asinine elements of this little story. How is being slain for wickedness of his motives considered having free will? He has an attitude god doesn't like, so god slays him. What even is free will in the choices of god then, just the ability to have thoughts?

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20-03-2015, 02:12 PM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(19-03-2015 11:12 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(19-03-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I don't understand what you think about this, Clyde,

"But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother."

The next verse amplifies:

"What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death [also]."

You have two choices, you can take that as a) Onan was a crappy provider for his family/genealogy or that everything in general Onan did was wicked, as he was also slain as was Er for wickedness and not coitus interruptus.

I think the problem lies in that you don't see that the consistent teaching of the Bible is attitude and not just Law and statutes. Onan's attitude lacked.

It's a mental disobedience yes... the problem is here how physically she still may of been as easily impregnated by his actions. It reflects people who don't understand all that much about biology, not the processes of the creator of life.

And you highlight the other asinine elements of this little story. How is being slain for wickedness of his motives considered having free will? He has an attitude god doesn't like, so god slays him. What even is free will in the choices of god then, just the ability to have thoughts?

I beg your pardon, again, but repeating again, I think everyone who isn't an atheist or skeptic recognizes that the Bible shows the honest sins and fallacies of its characters/people. I never thought God doesn't understand conception nor have I ever heard any rabbi or pastor or muslim cleric teach anything but disobedience as the point of Onan's tale.

As for free will coexisting with a sovereign God, what is the gap in your understanding? Most EVERY single action you ever undertake via your free will has consequences attached. You use your free will to shoot heroin, consequences. You decide to play chicken with trains, consequences, be they getting flattened, getting arrested, or getting a thrill rush and getting scared. You disobey God, there are consequences.

As a side note, it kind of reminds me of deconversion discussions here at TTA. "Oh, help me, TTA members, I'm in a church and I'm hurting." Sure you are, because you're thinking of leaving God and/or religion for atheism, which comes with consequences. "But I feel so relieved now that I've walked away from all that," you protest. Sure, and Hare Krishnas feel so much better and at "peace" after they join a cult, addicts feel so relieved when they give in yet again to porn or heroin or drink, etc. You are currently experiencing consequences for disobeying God, I say this to you with respect, and care, as for a friend, but you are sitting here again asking me about someone who disobeyed God and thus died millennia ago. Why?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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20-03-2015, 03:48 PM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(20-03-2015 02:12 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  As a side note, it kind of reminds me of deconversion discussions here at TTA. "Oh, help me, TTA members, I'm in a church and I'm hurting." Sure you are, because you're thinking of leaving God and/or religion for atheism, which comes with consequences. "But I feel so relieved now that I've walked away from all that," you protest. Sure, and Hare Krishnas feel so much better and at "peace" after they join a cult, addicts feel so relieved when they give in yet again to porn or heroin or drink, etc. You are currently experiencing consequences for disobeying God, I say this to you with respect, and care, as for a friend, but you are sitting here again asking me about someone who disobeyed God and thus died millennia ago. Why?

No Q. Some come here because they can't let their family know about their lack of belief. People have lost everything just because they don't believe in an invisible friend who doesn't want them to masturbate.

I do feel much better since walking away and removing my god glasses. Life for me infinitely better.

But going further are you comparing atheism to being a heroin addict? I think your conclusion is false. Atheism is a disbelief in gods. Religions provide many of the same creature comforts as heroin.

Think of atheism as drug rehab. Smile

Have a nice day.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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24-03-2015, 01:47 PM
RE: Oh, man, Onan
(20-03-2015 03:48 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(20-03-2015 02:12 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  As a side note, it kind of reminds me of deconversion discussions here at TTA. "Oh, help me, TTA members, I'm in a church and I'm hurting." Sure you are, because you're thinking of leaving God and/or religion for atheism, which comes with consequences. "But I feel so relieved now that I've walked away from all that," you protest. Sure, and Hare Krishnas feel so much better and at "peace" after they join a cult, addicts feel so relieved when they give in yet again to porn or heroin or drink, etc. You are currently experiencing consequences for disobeying God, I say this to you with respect, and care, as for a friend, but you are sitting here again asking me about someone who disobeyed God and thus died millennia ago. Why?

No Q. Some come here because they can't let their family know about their lack of belief. People have lost everything just because they don't believe in an invisible friend who doesn't want them to masturbate.

I do feel much better since walking away and removing my god glasses. Life for me infinitely better.

But going further are you comparing atheism to being a heroin addict? I think your conclusion is false. Atheism is a disbelief in gods. Religions provide many of the same creature comforts as heroin.

Think of atheism as drug rehab. Smile

Have a nice day.

I hear what you are saying but doubt people come to TTA to scream at Christians because of masturbation frustration. Be honest, instead. Why not say because of existential frustration at not hearing from God? Because that we can address together.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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