Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
17-12-2016, 09:25 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 08:25 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 07:58 AM)morondog Wrote:  As it happens I have talked to and am friends with several. Your bullshit assumption and attempt to paint me as some monster notwithstanding [...]
And... what did they tell you? Consider
The one is extremely religious and has a husband who's a passionate anti-abortionist. I think she feels pretty lousy about it. Because people keep reminding her of how sinful it is and that it's murder. The others... don't seem that bothered. It was a small clump of cells. Women abort spontaneously all the time anyway.

Quote:
(17-12-2016 07:58 AM)morondog Wrote:  [...] I don't see that some blind goal of reducing the number of them based on emotional appeal serves public policy better.
It's neither blind nor based on emotional appeal, it's based on the statistical fact that abortions have a negative effect on the mental health of many (nobody made a claim about "most" or "the majority" @Szuchow) women.
OK so if I accept your claim (I'm not gonna force a citation, it sounds reasonable) maybe it makes sense to have a goal of reducing the number of abortions. But it makes sense then because of the statistics about mental health. Not because of religion. Religion explicitly has no place in this discussion. Unless I guess, we're dealing with reasons why it might affect people's mental health, in which case the question is "how do we prevent these religious nut-cases from causing people needless mental anguish?"

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-12-2016, 10:34 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 07:39 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Have you ever talked to a woman who got an abortion? It's a deeply traumatizing experience for many of them, your callous remarks to the contrary notwithstanding. The goal should obviously be to make it less common in light of that fact.

This is a difficult claim to respond to. "Many" is too fluid a term; 3 out of 100? 10 out of 100 maybe? Or even 50?

According to the The National Life Center:

"With abortion, the most common feeling is regret. As a matter of fact, one survey found that 93 percent of women regret their abortion. The majority of women wish that they had not chosen abortion".

The only so-called reference I could find for this claim was an attribution to The Post-Abortion Review organisation—which doesn't provide any citation as to where this (original) claim was sourced. It was founded by somebody named David C. Reardon, who gained a bogus Ph.D in biomedical ethics from the Pacific Western University in Hawaii (closed in May 2006) which was an unaccredited correspondence school offering no classroom instruction—or as they're known, "diploma mills".

It's very difficult—impossible?—to ascertain with any accuracy just how many women, post-abortion, suffer psychologically or carry debilitating long-term regrets. The pro-life, ultra right-wing religious nutters intentionally muddy the statistical waters far too much.

—I accept from the thrust of you comments here that you're anti-abortion, but do your personal morals and ethics override those of a pregnant woman you've never even met? Should they? If that woman were to tell you to give up alcohol because it was the gift of the devil, would you do so? Of course not. You'd tell her to mind her own fucking business!

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like SYZ's post
17-12-2016, 11:31 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
@SYZ and Vosur

Another issue with any study about mental health and abortion is that one need to provide clear evidence that abortion is the cause of mental distress. For example, it was demonstrated that homosexual and non binary people were much more likely to express symptomes of mental illness like depression, anxiety and PTSD. Yet, all of those symptomes were not cause by homosexuality or being non-binary, but by people beeing complete dick toward them on a much more regular basis than "normal" people. Even if it was demonstrated that women who have abortion are more likely to develop mental health issues than women who don't have any, it would be reasonnable to believe that those mental health issue might be due to people beeing dick toward them on a more regular basis than women who didn't have an abortion. One could even find that the source of the mental health issue isnt abortion, but the unwanted pregnancy which abortion was going to stop. Identifying a clear cause/effect relationship toward mental heath issue can be very difficult because there is a lot of variable to control.

PS: Vosur has voiced numerous time that he doesn't support restriction to abortion, so lets stop with all the rethoric of "would you impose your beliefs on a women... blah, blah ,blah.". The answer was already given 3 pages ago and it's NO.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like epronovost's post
17-12-2016, 01:20 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 08:15 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 07:58 AM)morondog Wrote:  As it happens I have talked to and am friends with several. Your bullshit assumption and attempt to paint me as some monster notwithstanding, I don't see that some blind goal of reducing the number of them based on emotional appeal serves public policy better.

Facts seem to be on your side as majority of adult women who terminate a pregnancy do not experience mental health problems.

Yabut, what about the man? It's yet another genetic imperavative failure for him.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-12-2016, 01:39 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 01:20 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 08:15 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Facts seem to be on your side as majority of adult women who terminate a pregnancy do not experience mental health problems.

Yabut, what about the man? It's yet another genetic imperavative failure for him.

What about man? Nothing. Not his body, not his decision.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-12-2016, 02:45 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 01:39 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 01:20 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Yabut, what about the man? It's yet another genetic imperavative failure for him.

What about man? Nothing. Not his body, not his decision.

I was speaking in terms of mental health implications (given that was the context of the quoted post) not legal ones.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-12-2016, 02:52 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 02:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 01:39 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  What about man? Nothing. Not his body, not his decision.

I was speaking in terms of mental health implications (given that was the context of the quoted post) not legal ones.

I too. Whatever mental consequences (if any) are for a man they are irrelevant as he is not the one risking his health. Also consider the fact that legal abortion is safer than birth.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-12-2016, 02:55 PM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2016 02:58 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 02:52 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 02:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I was speaking in terms of mental health implications (given that was the context of the quoted post) not legal ones.

I too. Whatever mental consequences (if any) are for a man they are irrelevant as he is not the one risking his health. Also consider the fact that legal abortion is safer than birth.

They're not irrelevant to the man.

Here's a question. If you had sex with a woman and unknowingly impregnated her and she had an abortion would you want to know or not? I'm not interested in why or some justification. Just would you want to know or not?

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-12-2016, 02:58 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 02:55 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 02:52 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I too. Whatever mental consequences (if any) are for a man they are irrelevant as he is not the one risking his health. Also consider the fact that legal abortion is safer than birth.

They're not irrelevant to the man.

What do you propose to help the man?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
17-12-2016, 02:59 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 02:55 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 02:52 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I too. Whatever mental consequences (if any) are for a man they are irrelevant as he is not the one risking his health. Also consider the fact that legal abortion is safer than birth.

They're not irrelevant to the man.

These alleged consequences are irrelevant to me. Man will be hurt by woman decision? Tough shit as it is she who bear the risk.

Edit: No need for me knowing it, but knowing wouldn't made my world collapse.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: