Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
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17-12-2016, 03:01 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 02:58 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 02:55 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  They're not irrelevant to the man.

What do you propose to help the man?

I'm not even proposing there is a man to help. I was wondering if there are any longitudinal studies of fathers' reaction to abortion as there are for women. I could google it myself but meh.

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17-12-2016, 03:04 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 03:01 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 02:58 PM)morondog Wrote:  What do you propose to help the man?

I'm not even proposing there is a man to help. I was wondering if there are any longitudinal studies of fathers' reaction to abortion as there are women. I could google it myself but meh.

Hmmm. Might be interesting. Haven't the foggiest and too lazy to do your googling for you.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-12-2016, 03:13 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 03:01 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 02:58 PM)morondog Wrote:  What do you propose to help the man?

I'm not even proposing there is a man to help. I was wondering if there are any longitudinal studies of fathers' reaction to abortion as there are for women. I could google it myself but meh.

I would think it might depend on the situation.

Including his relationship with the woman.


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17-12-2016, 03:16 PM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2016 03:26 PM by dancefortwo.)
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 08:25 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 07:58 AM)morondog Wrote:  As it happens I have talked to and am friends with several. Your bullshit assumption and attempt to paint me as some monster notwithstanding [...]
And... what did they tell you? Consider

(17-12-2016 07:58 AM)morondog Wrote:  [...] I don't see that some blind goal of reducing the number of them based on emotional appeal serves public policy better.
It's neither blind nor based on emotional appeal, it's based on the statistical fact that abortions have a negative effect on the mental health of many (nobody made a claim about "most" or "the majority" @Szuchow) women.

Total bullshit. There are many studies on the emotional aftermath of abortions and every well designed study points to no regret and no mental illness. Religious proponents have always been disappointed in these studies but it doesn't stop them from making up their own shit anyway. This is one of many studies I've seen and every one of them are pretty similar. I had an abortion and have never had the slightest regret or emotional trauma over it and other women I've talked to have felt the same way.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article...832#sec013

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17-12-2016, 03:19 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 05:54 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(16-12-2016 08:08 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Let me keep this simple for you. Explain to me the basis of a system where (1) The right to bare arms shall not be infringed but (2) The right to do what you want with your own body is infringed upon by the state on the basis of religious claptrap.
That's a pretty disingenuous way to phrase it.

That's a very polite way of calling me a liar. It's important to understand these things if you're looking to change someone's mind on the issue.

Quote:It's either that or you genuinely don't understand the position you're arguing against.

Or perhaps you simply didn't understand my argument.

Quote:Those who want to outlaw abortion do not share your view of abortion as a mere choice over one's own body they believe that women who are getting an abortion are making a decision about the body of another human being.

Yup. And?

Quote:They don't see the child in a woman's womb as part of the woman who is carrying it, but as a separate being.

The "child" is a separate being. One with no right to impose itself upon the mother.

Quote:That's why at least some of them regard abortion as borderline murder.

No, they regard it as murder because they regard the "child" as a person, with all the rights and privileges thereof. Typically because they endow a fertilized ovum with mystical properties.

Quote:It should also be noted that there are plenty of non-religious opponents of the procedure.

Plenty? That's a pretty disingenuous way to phrase it.

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17-12-2016, 03:23 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 06:52 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 06:21 AM)morondog Wrote:  Some people think homosexuality is an offence against God. How shall we resolve this conundrum, that unevidenced beliefs are considered important in formulating policy?
The argument for legalizing abortion/against outlawing abortion, in my view, should not be based on views that are openly being disputed by the people you're arguing against, but on statistics that show that abortion bans are not only ineffective at reducing the number of abortions, but also detrimental to the health of the people who decide to get them in spite of the ban. It should be based on the fact that there are better, safer and more effective ways to reach the shared goal of making abortions less common than outlawing them. If debating people on this forum for over four years has taught me anything, it's that you can't change someone's mind on an issue by trying to invalidate their cherished beliefs.

You say that as if you didn't know that these are the same ass-clowns legislating abstinence-only sex "education".

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18-12-2016, 03:05 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 09:25 AM)morondog Wrote:  The one is extremely religious and has a husband who's a passionate anti-abortionist. I think she feels pretty lousy about it. Because people keep reminding her of how sinful it is and that it's murder. The others... don't seem that bothered. It was a small clump of cells. Women abort spontaneously all the time anyway.
The uncertain way you phrased your statements makes it sounds like you talked to them, but not about the topic of their abortion specifically. Anyway, miscarriages (I assume that's what you're referring to) can be very traumatizing as well. Again, speaking from first-hand experience with people I know there.

(17-12-2016 09:25 AM)morondog Wrote:  OK so if I accept your claim (I'm not gonna force a citation, it sounds reasonable) maybe it makes sense to have a goal of reducing the number of abortions. But it makes sense then because of the statistics about mental health. Not because of religion. Religion explicitly has no place in this discussion. Unless I guess, we're dealing with reasons why it might affect people's mental health, in which case the question is "how do we prevent these religious nut-cases from causing people needless mental anguish?"
It seems that we've come to an understanding.

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18-12-2016, 03:12 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 10:34 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 07:39 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Have you ever talked to a woman who got an abortion? It's a deeply traumatizing experience for many of them, your callous remarks to the contrary notwithstanding. The goal should obviously be to make it less common in light of that fact.

This is a difficult claim to respond to. "Many" is too fluid a term; 3 out of 100? 10 out of 100 maybe? Or even 50?

According to the The National Life Center:

"With abortion, the most common feeling is regret. As a matter of fact, one survey found that 93 percent of women regret their abortion. The majority of women wish that they had not chosen abortion".

The only so-called reference I could find for this claim was an attribution to The Post-Abortion Review organisation—which doesn't provide any citation as to where this (original) claim was sourced. It was founded by somebody named David C. Reardon, who gained a bogus Ph.D in biomedical ethics from the Pacific Western University in Hawaii (closed in May 2006) which was an unaccredited correspondence school offering no classroom instruction—or as they're known, "diploma mills".

It's very difficult—impossible?—to ascertain with any accuracy just how many women, post-abortion, suffer psychologically or carry debilitating long-term regrets. The pro-life, ultra right-wing religious nutters intentionally muddy the statistical waters far too much.

—I accept from the thrust of you comments here that you're anti-abortion, but do your personal morals and ethics override those of a pregnant woman you've never even met? Should they? If that woman were to tell you to give up alcohol because it was the gift of the devil, would you do so? Of course not. You'd tell her to mind her own fucking business!
I don't think it matters in the context of this discussion because the exact number or percentage of women who suffer negative effects from their abortions has no bearing on my argument. Any number greater than 0 is cause enough to want to reduce their incidence (not by force in the form of legislation, mind you, but through proper sex education and decent access to contraceptives). I fail to see why that's such a controversial position.

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18-12-2016, 03:42 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(18-12-2016 03:12 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Any number greater than 0 is cause enough to want to reduce their incidence (not by force in the form of legislation, mind you, but through proper sex education and decent access to contraceptives). I fail to see why that's such a controversial position.

I think percentages do matter. People get emotional over all kindsa shit. If significant numbers are negatively affected then obviously there needs to be better post-abortion care, better counselling, better sex education programs etc. I still don't see that focusing just on the numbers is a good way to look at it even if that is the case. On the other hand if it's only a few then cost-benefit of massive effort with little resulting payoff may not make it worth it.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-12-2016, 03:45 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(18-12-2016 03:05 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 09:25 AM)morondog Wrote:  The one is extremely religious and has a husband who's a passionate anti-abortionist. I think she feels pretty lousy about it. Because people keep reminding her of how sinful it is and that it's murder. The others... don't seem that bothered. It was a small clump of cells. Women abort spontaneously all the time anyway.
The uncertain way you phrased your statements makes it sounds like you talked to them, but not about the topic of their abortion specifically. Anyway, miscarriages (I assume that's what you're referring to) can be very traumatizing as well. Again, speaking from first-hand experience with people I know there.

Christ amigo, when a friend happens to mention that they've had an abortion you don't go into it in detail unless they so choose. Like I said, of those who have mentioned it none of them seem bothered. My religous friend did go into detail but that was years ago, so I don't particularly know how she feels about it now, but her asshole husband keeps posting on facebook about it, so at the very least I know it's discussed in their household frequently.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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