Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
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18-12-2016, 03:54 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 03:16 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Total bullshit. There are many studies on the emotional aftermath of abortions and every well designed study points to no regret and no mental illness. Religious proponents have always been disappointed in these studies but it doesn't stop them from making up their own shit anyway. This is one of many studies I've seen and every one of them are pretty similar. I had an abortion and have never had the slightest regret or emotional trauma over it and other women I've talked to have felt the same way.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article...832#sec013
If you're going to label one of my claims as 'total bullshit', you should at least make sure that you fully understand it. I didn't say a word about "regret" or "mental illness" in my post. What I said is that that abortions have a negative effect on the mental health of many women and as it turns out, the very study you cited supports that claim. As noted towards the end of the paper, "women experienced a range of emotions at enrollment: approximately two-thirds expressed sadness and over one-third felt some regret." The almost complete lack of regret you referred to in your post is the one that was measured years after the procedure was done. The effects I mentioned are very much real, but like all negative emotions, they subside over time.

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18-12-2016, 04:34 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 03:19 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Yup. And?
...and that is at odds with the your view that abortion is equal to a choice over a woman's own body.

(17-12-2016 03:19 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  The "child" is a separate being. One with no right to impose itself upon the mother.
If you knew that the child is a separate being, then the phrasing of your initial statement (which neglected to acknowledge this distinction) would appear to be somewhat disingenuous indeed.

(17-12-2016 03:19 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  No, they regard it as murder because they regard the "child" as a person, with all the rights and privileges thereof. Typically because they endow a fertilized ovum with mystical properties.
The two are not mutually exclusive. If anything, being a separate being is a prerequisite for being a person. That a foetus is more than a mere extension of a pregnant woman's body is the whole point.

(17-12-2016 03:19 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Plenty? That's a pretty disingenuous way to phrase it.
According to a study done by the Pew Research Center, 13% of unaffiliated people think that abortion should be illegal in most cases and another 8% think that it should be illegal in all cases. Only 28% of them think that it should be legal in all cases. My claim about plenty of non-religious people being opposed to abortion is firmly grounded in reality in light of these statistics, your cutesy little attempt at imitating my earlier remarks towards you notwithstanding. There's nothing disingenuous about it.

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18-12-2016, 04:56 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
Vosur. Where do you live again?

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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18-12-2016, 05:10 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(18-12-2016 04:56 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Vosur. Where do you live again?
The Czech Republic.

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18-12-2016, 05:18 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(18-12-2016 05:10 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(18-12-2016 04:56 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Vosur. Where do you live again?
The Czech Republic.

Then why the fuck do you care?

It's fucking idiotic American politics.

I thought you bright.

Was I wrong??? Blink

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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18-12-2016, 10:17 AM (This post was last modified: 18-12-2016 12:03 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(18-12-2016 03:12 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I don't think it matters in the context of this discussion because the exact number or percentage of women who suffer negative effects from their abortions has no bearing on my argument. Any number greater than 0 is cause enough to want to reduce their incidence (not by force in the form of legislation, mind you, but through proper sex education and decent access to contraceptives). I fail to see why that's such a controversial position.

You are completely discounting any negative emotions from NOT having an abortion. If longitudinal studies showed that women who were denied an abortion had negative emotions to a greater degree in greater numbers than those who received one, your argument falls flat.

If only there was such a study. ... Women’s Mental Health and Well-being 5 Years After Receiving or Being Denied an Abortion A Prospective, Longitudinal Cohort Study

#sigh
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18-12-2016, 10:19 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(18-12-2016 05:18 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(18-12-2016 05:10 AM)Vosur Wrote:  The Czech Republic.

Then why the fuck do you care?

It's fucking idiotic American politics.

I thought you bright.

Was I wrong??? Blink

You were.

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18-12-2016, 11:56 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(18-12-2016 03:12 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 10:34 AM)SYZ Wrote:  This is a difficult claim to respond to. "Many" is too fluid a term; 3 out of 100? 10 out of 100 maybe? Or even 50?

I don't think it matters in the context of this discussion because the exact number or percentage of women who suffer negative effects from their abortions has no bearing on my argument. Any number greater than 0 is cause enough to want to reduce their incidence (not by force in the form of legislation, mind you, but through proper sex education and decent access to contraceptives). I fail to see why that's such a controversial position.

Of course the percentage of women suffering psychological distress has a bearing on your anti-abortion stance—in fact regret alone serves as a major piece of ammunition for all ant-abortionists. Your claim that even one abortion is one too many is purely quixotic in any actual world scenario involving unwillingly pregnant girls and/or women, and makes no allowances for adolescent rape, life risks to women with, say, a ruptured ectopic pregnancy for example, or failure of prophylaxis.

Your repeated claims that improved sex education and/or contraceptive availability is the answer has already been addressed—and found wanting.

A 2011 survey of the most recent evaluations of mainstream sex education programs in the UK, by sexual health expert professor Daniel Wight, found "minimal effect on reported behaviour" and that none of the programs led to reductions in unwanted pregnancies.

And professor David Paton, a member of the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children in the UK says "innovations to sex education policy—such as making it compulsory at primary school level, introducing a statutory curriculum and removing the right for parents to opt-out their children—are unlikely to have much, if any, impact on sexual health among young people".

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18-12-2016, 01:04 PM (This post was last modified: 18-12-2016 01:35 PM by Vosur.)
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(18-12-2016 11:56 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Of course the percentage of women suffering psychological distress has a bearing on your anti-abortion stance—in fact regret alone serves as a major piece of ammunition for all ant-abortionists. Your claim that even one abortion is one too many is purely quixotic in any actual world scenario involving unwillingly pregnant girls and/or women, and makes no allowances for adolescent rape, life risks to women with, say, a ruptured ectopic pregnancy for example, or failure of prophylaxis.
My argument is not one for criminalizing or outlawing the procedure, so no, it really doesn't have any bearing on it. In addition to that, your representation of my claim as "even one abortion is too many" is a complete strawman. What I said is that even one woman suffering negative mental health effects from her abortion is cause enough to want to reduce their incidence.

(18-12-2016 11:56 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Your repeated claims that improved sex education and/or contraceptive availability is the answer has already been addressed—and found wanting.

A 2011 survey of the most recent evaluations of mainstream sex education programs in the UK, by sexual health expert professor Daniel Wight, found "minimal effect on reported behaviour" and that none of the programs led to reductions in unwanted pregnancies.

And professor David Paton, a member of the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children in the UK says "innovations to sex education policy—such as making it compulsory at primary school level, introducing a statutory curriculum and removing the right for parents to opt-out their children—are unlikely to have much, if any, impact on sexual health among young people".
This topic is about the US, not the UK. You know, the country with the highest teenage pregnancy rate in any Western nation. According to the Centers for Disease Control, more than 80% of teenage pregnancies in the US are unintended, with 30% of them ending up being terminated via abortion. Here's a more comprehensive study for you to read: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.10...3/abstract

From the conclusion: "A combination of educational and contraceptive-promoting interventions appears to reduce unintended pregnancy among adolescents."
From the summary: "Only interventions involving a combination of education and contraception promotion (multiple interventions) was seen to significantly reduce unintended pregnancy over the medium-term and long-term follow-up period."

I rest my case.

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18-12-2016, 01:34 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(18-12-2016 05:18 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Then why the fuck do you care? It's fucking idiotic American politics. I thought you bright. Was I wrong??? Blink
You'll have to ask your question in good faith if you want my answer to be anything other than "My reasons are none of your business."

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