Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
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18-12-2016, 02:10 PM (This post was last modified: 18-12-2016 03:44 PM by Anjele.)
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
Vos,
I have read many of your posts regarding abortion. I want to ask a question. First, I understand that you aren't a proponent of abortion and you often come across as anti-abortion for many reasons.

Do you suggest abstinence in all situations except for the purpose of reproducing? No birth control method is 100% effective so it seems that if two people decide to engage in sexual intercourse they must be prepared to parent a child should their efforts at preventing pregnancy fail.

This is such a Catholic perspective on sex.

I do not like the idea of abortion being used as a method of birth control. I know women who seemed to take a trip to an abortion as lightly as a trip to the dentist. I also know women who were devastated by making the decision...not that they felt they made the wrong decision but that they placed themselves in a position to have to make the decision.

I may not be understanding your stance. Are you just taking and defending a side?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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18-12-2016, 03:04 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
No one called him on trying to make a link between an unwanted pregnancy ending in abortion and a wanted pregnancy that ended in miscarriage?

The moms in the latter case tend to be devastated because they wanted that child badly, and the usual anecdote is that they feel like they "failed".

That's also the topic of my 3rd* favorite Tori Amos song:





6:58, are you sure where my spark is?
Here? Here? Here?
She's convinced she could hold back a glacier,
But she couldn't keep baby alive.
Doubting if there's a woman in there somewhere-
Here? Here? Here?
You say you don't want it again and again but you don't, don't really mean it.


*After "Northern Lad" and "1000 Oceans".

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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18-12-2016, 03:07 PM (This post was last modified: 18-12-2016 03:10 PM by kim.)
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(18-12-2016 01:04 PM)Vosur Wrote:  ---
--- What I said is that even one woman suffering negative mental health effects from her abortion is cause enough to want to reduce their incidence.
---

Well, I've suffered negative mental health effects from dentistry ... so much that I ended up not going again for 20 years. Probably not the best idea I ever had. Dodgy
***

The thing is, many of the things a woman must consider when she is making the decision to get an abortion, are very similar to the things she must consider if she is deciding to give birth. Any procedure can have complications and go wrong. Any post procedure can have complications and cause continuing issues. I can personally introduce you to maybe 100 women I know who've either given birth or had an abortion, who could tell you what they've mentally gone through during and after their respective procedures and they will tell you very similar stories. Interestingly, the giving birth stories are often more horrendous and carry what I would consider more dire consequences. Not that the abortion stories don't but, I think I've just heard a few more birth stories and have witnessed the outcomes.

I have to ask Vosur, would you be inclined to state: even one woman suffering negative mental health effects from giving birth is cause enough to want to reduce their incidence?
I would but, I tend to think the world is far too overpopulated with the human species. Shy

***
It is apparent that the right to make such a decision must be in the hands of the person who's body will undergo the procedure ... whether that procedure is giving birth or getting an abortion.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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18-12-2016, 03:16 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(18-12-2016 03:07 PM)kim Wrote:  I have to ask Vosur, would you be inclined to state: even one woman suffering negative mental health effects from giving birth is cause enough to want to reduce their incidence?
***

Valid point.

I went through a terrible case of post-partum depression after my second child...like suicidal level depression. Should all women who suffer from such be prevented from another pregnancy?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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18-12-2016, 03:23 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(18-12-2016 03:16 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(18-12-2016 03:07 PM)kim Wrote:  I have to ask Vosur, would you be inclined to state: even one woman suffering negative mental health effects from giving birth is cause enough to want to reduce their incidence?
***

Valid point.

I went through a terrible case of post-partum depression after my second child...like suicidal level depression. Should all women who suffer from such be prevented from another pregnancy?

My Beloved went through pretty severe gestational diabetes, carrying our second child, which really traumatized her because her dad is a diabetic (gestational diabetes is unrelated to her father's diabetes, but gestational diabetes can lead to permanent diabetes), and led to severe depression both during and after the pregnancy.

Funny how none of that is evidence that childbirth is a bad idea.

Also funny how, when I point out that carrying a child is dangerous to the mother and must therefore be something undertaken voluntarily-- not under duress by the state-- it doesn't seem to matter to "pro-Life" advocates.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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18-12-2016, 03:31 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(18-12-2016 03:23 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(18-12-2016 03:16 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Valid point.

I went through a terrible case of post-partum depression after my second child...like suicidal level depression. Should all women who suffer from such be prevented from another pregnancy?

My Beloved went through pretty severe gestational diabetes, carrying our second child, which really traumatized her because her dad is a diabetic (gestational diabetes is unrelated to her father's diabetes, but gestational diabetes can lead to permanent diabetes), and led to severe depression both during and after the pregnancy.

Funny how none of that is evidence that childbirth is a bad idea.

Also funny how, when I point out that carrying a child is dangerous to the mother and must therefore be something undertaken voluntarily-- not under duress by the state-- it doesn't seem to matter to "pro-Life" advocates.

Consider Interesting...I also had gestational diabetes with my second but never tied that and the post-partum together. Neither did anyone else.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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18-12-2016, 03:34 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(18-12-2016 03:23 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Also funny how, when I point out that carrying a child is dangerous to the mother and must therefore be something undertaken voluntarily-- not under duress by the state-- it doesn't seem to matter to "pro-Life" advocates.

Seeing as "woman are living incubators" crowd is concerned with forcing it's taboos onto others I'm not surprised that they don't give a shit about woman safety.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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18-12-2016, 03:44 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(18-12-2016 03:31 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Consider Interesting...I also had gestational diabetes with my second but never tied that and the post-partum together. Neither did anyone else.

I wasn't trying to suggest a physical causal link. Her terror at the idea of becoming diabetic complicated what was already a bad case of depression, especially the post-partum depression.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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18-12-2016, 04:02 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 03:16 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 08:25 AM)Vosur Wrote:  And... what did they tell you? Consider

It's neither blind nor based on emotional appeal, it's based on the statistical fact that abortions have a negative effect on the mental health of many (nobody made a claim about "most" or "the majority" @Szuchow) women.

Total bullshit. There are many studies on the emotional aftermath of abortions and every well designed study points to no regret and no mental illness. Religious proponents have always been disappointed in these studies but it doesn't stop them from making up their own shit anyway. This is one of many studies I've seen and every one of them are pretty similar. I had an abortion and have never had the slightest regret or emotional trauma over it and other women I've talked to have felt the same way.

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article...832#sec013

Also you can never be certain with regret how much religion plays a part of those emotions.

That's a study I'd like to see, but will likely never be done.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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18-12-2016, 04:03 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(18-12-2016 03:31 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(18-12-2016 03:23 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  My Beloved went through pretty severe gestational diabetes, carrying our second child, which really traumatized her because her dad is a diabetic (gestational diabetes is unrelated to her father's diabetes, but gestational diabetes can lead to permanent diabetes), and led to severe depression both during and after the pregnancy.

Funny how none of that is evidence that childbirth is a bad idea.

Also funny how, when I point out that carrying a child is dangerous to the mother and must therefore be something undertaken voluntarily-- not under duress by the state-- it doesn't seem to matter to "pro-Life" advocates.

Consider Interesting...I also had gestational diabetes with my second but never tied that and the post-partum together. Neither did anyone else.

I had GD but no postpartum depression. Four months of twice a day insulin shots and four-times-a-day blood sugar checks, it was a major hassle on top of everything else.

I also would point out, in regards to the general discussion (and not necessarily apropos of anything you said in particular), that many significant life decisions can make us feel sad/regretful, while we can still be utterly convinced, then and for the future, that we are doing the correct thing.

Also I would point out that many women who abort already have children (many are married to the father of those children and the decision to terminate is often mutual). Many abortion opponents seem to view all abortions as involving randy teens or childless career women, "selfishly" deciding to terminate instead of give birth, but many abortions are arranged by women who already know how much work and care are involved in raising a child (the work that starts once the child is born).
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