Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
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08-12-2016, 12:23 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
I think they should go with the Jewish view :
A fetus is not viable until it graduates from medical school.

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08-12-2016, 12:28 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(07-12-2016 12:07 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I don't agree with this either though. The whole question of exactly what constitutes life and exactly when it begins is far from clear no matter what line is chosen. This, for me, is one of the strongest arguments for why it should be left up to each individual to decide and it cannot and should not be legislated except maybe to ensure that right.
The entire discussion about the time frame of abortions is a giant red herring in my view. What people should be talking about instead is the statistical fact that outlawing abortions does not significantly reduce their incidence and that it instead only causes more complications, suffering and death by forcing women to resort to unsafe alternatives to abortion clinics. Unlike many of my atheist peers, I abhor abortions, but that doesn't blind me to the fact that banning them is a terrible way to address the problem. A much better, much more effective approach is high quality sex education (not that "abstinence-only" crap) and good access to contraceptives which allow women to prevent getting pregnant unintentionally in the first place.

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08-12-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(08-12-2016 12:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I think they should go with the Jewish view :
A fetus is not viable until it graduates from medical school.

Given that Ben Carson apparently accomplished that I'm not sure it is a good measure.

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08-12-2016, 01:09 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(08-12-2016 12:28 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(07-12-2016 12:07 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I don't agree with this either though. The whole question of exactly what constitutes life and exactly when it begins is far from clear no matter what line is chosen. This, for me, is one of the strongest arguments for why it should be left up to each individual to decide and it cannot and should not be legislated except maybe to ensure that right.
The entire discussion about the time frame of abortions is a giant red herring in my view. What people should be talking about instead is the statistical fact that outlawing abortions does not significantly reduce their incidence and that it instead only causes more complications, suffering and death by forcing women to resort to unsafe alternatives to abortion clinics. Unlike many of my atheist peers, I abhor abortions, but that doesn't blind me to the fact that banning them is a terrible way to address the problem. A much better, much more effective approach is high quality sex education (not that "abstinence-only" crap) and good access to contraceptives which allow women to prevent getting pregnant unintentionally in the first place.

I don't think anyone likes abortion. I think we're all in aggreeance that we just want the option to remain available for women, because we realize abortions will still happen whether legal or not. We want it to be safe.

I second that there should be more higher quality sex ed, and better access to protections and contraceptives.

I really wish I wouldn't have to drive 30+ miles to get myself fixed because most hospitals around here won't allow it, even though the doctors aren't against performing the procedure.

I don't care if they think I'll change my mind. 99% sure I won't, but on the off chance I do, I'd rather ADOPT a kid that needs a home (which ironically can't be said for most pro-birthers) than spawn my own.

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08-12-2016, 01:18 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(08-12-2016 12:28 PM)Vosur Wrote:  The entire discussion about the time frame of abortions is a giant red herring in my view. What people should be talking about instead is the statistical fact that outlawing abortions does not significantly reduce their incidence and that it instead only causes more complications, suffering and death by forcing women to resort to unsafe alternatives to abortion clinics. Unlike many of my atheist peers, I abhor abortions, but that doesn't blind me to the fact that banning them is a terrible way to address the problem. A much better, much more effective approach is high quality sex education (not that "abstinence-only" crap) and good access to contraceptives which allow women to prevent getting pregnant unintentionally in the first place.
Vosur, those are valid points and definitely important in any abortion discussion. However, I disagree about the time frame being a red herring. Pro-lifers come from the assumption that abortion is murder. If the actual start of life could be as clearly established as the existence of life in an actual murder (i.e., the murder of a born, living person), and that start was before birth, then it would change the discussion dramatically. So I believe that point is very important. However, I also believe we will never be able to establish that in any way that would have the same level of acceptance and agreement. So I don't find it very useful in the discussion. Maybe it is a red herring in that sense.

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08-12-2016, 05:02 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(07-12-2016 11:03 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
Quote:Ohio 'heartbeat bill' abortion ban moves to governor
COLUMBUS, Ohio — Ohio would have the country's most restrictive abortion laws under a bill sent to Gov. John Kasich on Tuesday, as leading Republicans were emboldened by the anticipation of Donald Trump's upcoming federal and Supreme court appointments.

If signed by Kasich, the so-called "heartbeat bill" would ban abortions after a fetal heartbeat is detected, which can be as early as six weeks' gestation. The proposal would not exempt pregnancies resulting from rape or incest, but does include an exception for an abortion to save the life of the pregnant woman.

Quote:For years, Kasich, leading Republican senators and Ohio Right to Life have cited its unconstitutionality as their reason for opposing the heartbeat measure.
Quote:On Tuesday, Senate Republicans changed course. Faber cited Trump's election to the presidency as justification for his change of heart, saying the effort could have a shot in the courts with Trump's appointees.
In other words, don't support it when it might lose, but support it when it might win. WTF? So rightness and wrongness don't matter? What happened to it being unconstitutional? Fuck these people! Angry

What a bunch of fucking idiots.
Ectopic pregnancies can have beating hearts, and unless terminated are deadly to both mother and baby.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj2q62IarUE

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09-12-2016, 02:46 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(08-12-2016 05:02 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(07-12-2016 11:03 AM)Impulse Wrote:  In other words, don't support it when it might lose, but support it when it might win. WTF? So rightness and wrongness don't matter? What happened to it being unconstitutional? Fuck these people! Angry

What a bunch of fucking idiots.
Ectopic pregnancies can have beating hearts, and unless terminated are deadly to both mother and baby.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj2q62IarUE

Yeah but this bill applies to only those pregnancies implanted in the womb and allows a doctor to make a determination if a medical requirement exists "to prevent the death of the pregnant woman or to prevent a serious risk of the substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman."

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09-12-2016, 03:35 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(08-12-2016 12:28 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Unlike many of my atheist peers, I abhor abortions, ...

You really are a fucking supercilious asshole.

#sigh
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09-12-2016, 03:36 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(09-12-2016 02:46 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Yeah but this bill applies to only those pregnancies implanted in the womb and allows a doctor to make a determination if a medical requirement exists "to prevent the death of the pregnant woman or to prevent a serious risk of the substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman."
Implanted? This bill applies to any pregnancy.

And whoopie shit about the doctor's exception! The doctor can only grant the exception if there is a serious health risk. Many women don't even know they're pregnant until after 6 weeks (when the heartbeat can be heard) and, without a serious health risk, then have no chance to have an abortion. Worse yet, there is no exemption for rape or incest in this bill either and those victims also would have no chance to have an abortion.

Do you honestly think it's in a child's best interest to be born to a mother who will forever associate rape with the child? Do you honestly think it would be so easy for a mother to give a child up for adoption even in that case? Do you honestly think there is a guarantee that a child put up for adoption will get beyond an orphanage or the foster care system into an adoptive home? Have you thought any of this through? No

Make no mistake. Most of the politicians passing these bills are politically, not morally, motivated and they're playing a fucking chess game with real people's lives! Assholes! Angry

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09-12-2016, 05:21 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(08-12-2016 12:28 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(07-12-2016 12:07 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I don't agree with this either though. The whole question of exactly what constitutes life and exactly when it begins is far from clear no matter what line is chosen. This, for me, is one of the strongest arguments for why it should be left up to each individual to decide and it cannot and should not be legislated except maybe to ensure that right.
The entire discussion about the time frame of abortions is a giant red herring in my view. What people should be talking about instead is the statistical fact that outlawing abortions does not significantly reduce their incidence and that it instead only causes more complications, suffering and death by forcing women to resort to unsafe alternatives to abortion clinics. Unlike many of my atheist peers, I abhor abortions, but that doesn't blind me to the fact that banning them is a terrible way to address the problem. A much better, much more effective approach is high quality sex education (not that "abstinence-only" crap) and good access to contraceptives which allow women to prevent getting pregnant unintentionally in the first place.

How about you explain why you abhor abortion, and then justify your "abhorrence" of abortion, and tell us if and why you think you get to interfere with the decisions of women about their reproductive cycle.

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