Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
11-12-2016, 06:15 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(10-12-2016 09:33 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(10-12-2016 03:17 PM)julep Wrote:  The problem for me, mostly, is the word.

Pardon what seems to be a digression, but: Christians are no good at hating the sin, but loving the sinner, not when it's a sin that hits them at a gut level, and most especially when other people may not even agree that it's a sin. Examples: abortion, homosexuality, charging interest on a loan... In cases like these, Christians can't seem to stop themselves from shaming the sinner, punishing the sinner, ostracizing the sinner. Of course that's not just a Christian failing, it's a human failing. It's my opinion that the language used helps drive attitudes towards what is then increasingly becomes an out group. Abhorrent is a morally loaded, us/them word.

Visor's online persona would be another reason for the ire.

You're right that "abhorrent" can be a very charged word, but it seemed clear to me that what he found abhorrent was the abortion, not the people involved.

As for his personality, he and I have had our tussles ... I don't hold his rough edges against him, because lord knows I've got plenty of my own.

As someone who's lived near a couple of abortion clinics and had to walk a couple of times a week through a gauntlet of angry prayer-screamers just to get home, seeing the way they menaced anyone going near the clinic door, I just don't think many people who feel that strongly about the procedure do compartmentalize in that way. Charged words used deliberately to inflame and energize others...that's what I'm seeing from him here (and elsewhere on this site, too).

Agree to disagree, though, that's fine. Just an explanation as to what I think about V and his words and why.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-12-2016, 08:12 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
Reading through these different opinions is interesting. But I can't help but say with all due respect that unless you've had the unfortunate personal experience of living through the trauma your opinion really don't mean dick.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-12-2016, 09:42 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(08-12-2016 12:28 PM)Vosur Wrote:  The entire discussion about the time frame of abortions is a giant red herring in my view.

I'd have to disagree with your view. The time frame is critical. Here in Australia, abortions are legal up until the 25th week, which is a fair and reasonable period in my opinion.

Quote:Unlike many of my atheist peers, I abhor abortions, but that doesn't blind me to the fact that banning them is a terrible way to address the problem.

Presumably you "abhor" abortions because of your belief that a foetus—regardless of its age in days or weeks— is a sentient being worthy of the right to a continuing life? Or that you regard abortions as murder in the first degree?

Quote: A much better, much more effective approach is high quality sex education (not that "abstinence-only" crap) and good access to contraceptives which allow women to prevent getting pregnant unintentionally in the first place.

Again, I have to disagree. It's a statistical given that no amount of "sex education" will provide girls or women with the means or motive to apply contraceptive prophylaxis. And even when, or if they do, all contraceptive devices/methods/drugs have an inherent failure rate—which are also responsible for many abortions in themselves.

A few examples of contraception failure rates:

• spermicides=28%
• withdrawal=22%
• condom=18%
• diaphragm=12%
• Ortho Evra transdermal patch=9%
• DMPA (depot medroxyprogesterone acetate)=6%

US Association of Reproductive Health Professionals, June 2014.

Your hopes about sex education being the holy grail precluding unwanted pregnancies is far too optimistic a perception I'm afraid.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-12-2016, 10:30 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(11-12-2016 09:42 AM)SYZ Wrote:  I'd have to disagree with your view. The time frame is critical. Here in Australia, abortions are legal up until the 25th week, which is a fair and reasonable period in my opinion.
The timeframe specified in that law, to me, appears no less arbitrary than all the other ones that exist in the various legislatures around the world. What is it makes this one in particular 'fair and reasonable' to you?

(11-12-2016 09:42 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Presumably you "abhor" abortions because of your belief that a foetus—regardless of its age in days or weeks— is a sentient being worthy of the right to a continuing life? Or that you regard abortions as murder in the first degree?
No, friend, my reasons for abhorring abortions are not based on an incomplete understanding of human biology and criminal law. I think I already explained that the procedure violates my personal moral code in an earlier post.

(11-12-2016 09:42 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Again, I have to disagree. It's a statistical given that no amount of "sex education" will provide girls or women with the means or motive to apply contraceptive prophylaxis. And even when, or if they do, all contraceptive devices/methods/drugs have an inherent failure rate—which are also responsible for many abortions in themselves.

A few examples of contraception failure rates:

• spermicides=28%
• withdrawal=22%
• condom=18%
• diaphragm=12%
• Ortho Evra transdermal patch=9%
• DMPA (depot medroxyprogesterone acetate)=6%

US Association of Reproductive Health Professionals, June 2014.

Your hopes about sex education being the holy grail precluding unwanted pregnancies is far too optimistic a perception I'm afraid.
I think you misunderstood my position. The goal is not to eradicate abortions entirely (a borderline impossible task given that neither sex education nor the advocacy for contraceptives reduce the number of rapes that occur every year), but to take every sensible measure that we can to reduce the number of cases where the procedure is seen as necessary. Hopefully you can see that abstinence-only education and a complete lack of contraceptives lead to far more abortions than the measures I have proposed.

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Vosur's post
11-12-2016, 10:43 AM (This post was last modified: 11-12-2016 10:48 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(10-12-2016 08:51 PM)julep Wrote:  I withdraw the term disingenuous, as it clearly was not the mot juste. Please replace it with preening (or, if you prefer, moral self-aggrandizement...I think preening is punchier, though).
(11-12-2016 06:15 AM)julep Wrote:  As someone who's lived near a couple of abortion clinics and had to walk a couple of times a week through a gauntlet of angry prayer-screamers just to get home, seeing the way they menaced anyone going near the clinic door, I just don't think many people who feel that strongly about the procedure do compartmentalize in that way. Charged words used deliberately to inflame and energize others...that's what I'm seeing from him here (and elsewhere on this site, too).

You're free to speculate about my motives to your heart's content, but I would advise you not to make the mistake of confusing your speculation with reality. I am the only person in the world who can speak about the intentions behind my posts and my choice of words with any authority and credibility. Anyone else, while entitled to their opinion, is not speaking from a position of knowledge, but a position of conjecture and presumptions. As far as my use of the term "abhor" is concerned, I chose that word because it accurately conveys the feelings that I experience when I think about the procedure, disgust being the most notable one among them.

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-12-2016, 08:30 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(11-12-2016 06:15 AM)julep Wrote:  As someone who's lived near a couple of abortion clinics and had to walk a couple of times a week through a gauntlet of angry prayer-screamers just to get home, seeing the way they menaced anyone going near the clinic door, I just don't think many people who feel that strongly about the procedure do compartmentalize in that way. Charged words used deliberately to inflame and energize others...that's what I'm seeing from him here (and elsewhere on this site, too).

Agree to disagree, though, that's fine. Just an explanation as to what I think about V and his words and why.
I think you're letting your personal experiences color your judgment. Keep in mind, anyone protesting at abortion clinics are at the far extreme of the issue. Most people have strong opinions on the issue one way or the other, but relatively few actually protest at clinics.

This is NOT a black and white issue. Clearly. If it was, there wouldn't be such heated disagreement about it. This is why it bugs the hell out of me when anyone wants to decide for everyone what they should do either way. I have no problem with anyone expressing their viewpoint on the subject no matter what words they choose. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion no matter what that opinion is - again, because the issue is far from black and white. What counts is what people do or don't want to impose on others. When someone wants to legislate for all, that's what I will judge them on.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Impulse's post
12-12-2016, 09:47 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
Okay... can any of the anti-abortion folks here tell me—unequivocally—whether this 6-week-old spontaneously aborted foetus is that of a dog, a sheep, a cat or..... a human? And what specifically identifies it as your choice? (And, please, no Google!)

Warning: Graphic image may offend some.


[Image: bethanyf.jpg]

Huh

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-12-2016, 10:06 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(12-12-2016 09:47 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Okay... can any of the anti-abortion folks here tell me—unequivocally—whether this 6-week-old spontaneously aborted foetus is that of a dog, a sheep, a cat or..... a human? And what specifically identifies it as your choice? (And, please, no Google!)

Warning: Graphic image may offend some.


[Image: bethanyf.jpg]

Huh

Looks like lunch

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOW_Ioi2wtuPa88FvBmnBgQ my youtube
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Metazoa Zeke's post
12-12-2016, 03:53 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(12-12-2016 10:06 AM)Metazoa Zeke Wrote:  
(12-12-2016 09:47 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Okay... can any of the anti-abortion folks here tell me—unequivocally—whether this 6-week-old spontaneously aborted foetus is that of a dog, a sheep, a cat or..... a human? And what specifically identifies it as your choice? (And, please, no Google!)

Warning: Graphic image may offend some.


[Image: bethanyf.jpg]

Huh

Looks like lunch

You are an atheist afterall.Drinking Beverage

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-12-2016, 02:48 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
You really have to love the Satanists and their sense of humor. They only keep winning because they've learned how to keep a straight face in court.

“To us, the heartbeat is irrelevant to the claim of personhood. We do not advocate for a belief in the soul, therefore we feel that complex cerebral functions necessary for perception are what makes a person a person. The non-viable fetus (a fetus that cannot survive outside the woman’s body) is, we feel, a part of the woman’s own body, and it is her choice whether or not she continues the pregnancy. ... Our tenets assert bodily autonomy and uphold science as the arbiter of claims over what is true, to which we give deference in our decisions. As the Ohio Bill is imposed for no medical purpose and presents no compelling state interest, it is simply a violation of our free exercise, we will fight back against it, and we will very likely prevail.” - Lucien Greaves

Big Grin

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like GirlyMan's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: