Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
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16-12-2016, 01:44 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(14-12-2016 08:22 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(13-12-2016 06:42 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  If a woman is so stupid that she can't figure out that she is pregnant, schedule her abortion, then have the abortion procedure within 5 months she probably shouldn't be having sex. 5 months is plenty of damn time to get it done.

Bullshit. 20 weeks is the number and that's not even 5 months. 20 weeks is also a very nice arbitrarily round number - which makes it suspiciously random and based on nothing. So, for the sake of being accurate with such a delicate matter:

1. Please define "life" in a way that will be accepted by the same number of people that agree that walking up to a person on the street and murdering them is wrong.

2. Then please explain exactly at what point in its development a fetus finally fits that definition. Don't forget to provide definitive evidence so the same number of people will agree.

Then we'll have a discussion starting point about what legislation does or does not make sense. Take your time. I'll wait. Drinking Beverage

Oh, and keep in mind, definitions like "first brain activity" or "first heart beat" have already been tried and have failed to gain the volume of agreement needed. You're going to have to be completely original.

Two days and not a peep. What say you LDH?

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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16-12-2016, 08:08 PM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(14-12-2016 08:45 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(14-12-2016 04:36 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  If a man is so stupid that he thinks that he has any right to legislate what a woman may or may not do with her body then he deserves to have his balls torn off and fed to him in thin slices.

This isn't just a man thing. Plenty of women...

They don't have the right either. It just sounds stoopider when somebody who doesn't even have the anatomy or the capacity is making the laws.

Let me keep this simple for you. Explain to me the basis of a system where (1) The right to bare arms shall not be infringed but (2) The right to do what you want with your own body is infringed upon by the state on the basis of religious claptrap.

A thinking person might be concerned by the liberties being taken with their Liberties.

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17-12-2016, 05:54 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(16-12-2016 08:08 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Let me keep this simple for you. Explain to me the basis of a system where (1) The right to bare arms shall not be infringed but (2) The right to do what you want with your own body is infringed upon by the state on the basis of religious claptrap.
That's a pretty disingenuous way to phrase it. It's either that or you genuinely don't understand the position you're arguing against. Those who want to outlaw abortion do not share your view of abortion as a mere choice over one's own body, they believe that women who are getting an abortion are making a decision about the body of another human being. They don't see the child in a woman's womb as part of the woman who is carrying it, but as a separate being. That's why at least some of them regard abortion as borderline murder. It should also be noted that there are plenty of non-religious opponents of the procedure. It's important to understand these things if you're looking to change someone's mind on the issue.

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17-12-2016, 06:21 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 05:54 AM)Vosur Wrote:  They don't see the child in a woman's womb as part of the woman who is carrying it, but as a separate being.

Some people think homosexuality is an offence against God. How shall we resolve this conundrum, that unevidenced beliefs are considered important in formulating policy?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-12-2016, 06:52 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 06:21 AM)morondog Wrote:  Some people think homosexuality is an offence against God. How shall we resolve this conundrum, that unevidenced beliefs are considered important in formulating policy?
The argument for legalizing abortion/against outlawing abortion, in my view, should not be based on views that are openly being disputed by the people you're arguing against, but on statistics that show that abortion bans are not only ineffective at reducing the number of abortions, but also detrimental to the health of the people who decide to get them in spite of the ban. It should be based on the fact that there are better, safer and more effective ways to reach the shared goal of making abortions less common than outlawing them. If debating people on this forum for over four years has taught me anything, it's that you can't change someone's mind on an issue by trying to invalidate their cherished beliefs.

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17-12-2016, 07:16 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 06:52 AM)Vosur Wrote:  It should be based on the fact that there are better, safer and more effective ways to reach the shared goal of making abortions less common than outlawing them.

Hmm. I'm not sure that I share the goal of making abortions less common. It's a minor procedure, it's like getting a mole cut out. Why is there a need to reduce the number? I agree that the stats argument is a definite useful point, but even if the stats showed that an abortion ban would work, I don't think policy makers should be paying attention to religion-based arguments.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-12-2016, 07:39 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 07:16 AM)morondog Wrote:  Hmm. I'm not sure that I share the goal of making abortions less common. It's a minor procedure, it's like getting a mole cut out. Why is there a need to reduce the number? I agree that the stats argument is a definite useful point, but even if the stats showed that an abortion ban would work, I don't think policy makers should be paying attention to religion-based arguments.
Have you ever talked to a woman who got an abortion? It's a deeply traumatizing experience for many of them, your callous remarks to the contrary notwithstanding. The goal should obviously be to make it less common in light of that fact.

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17-12-2016, 07:58 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 07:39 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Have you ever talked to a woman who got an abortion? It's a deeply traumatizing experience for many of them, your callous remarks to the contrary notwithstanding. The goal should obviously be to make it less common in light of that fact.

As it happens I have talked to and am friends with several. Your bullshit assumption and attempt to paint me as some monster notwithstanding, I don't see that some blind goal of reducing the number of them based on emotional appeal serves public policy better.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-12-2016, 08:15 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 07:58 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(17-12-2016 07:39 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Have you ever talked to a woman who got an abortion? It's a deeply traumatizing experience for many of them, your callous remarks to the contrary notwithstanding. The goal should obviously be to make it less common in light of that fact.

As it happens I have talked to and am friends with several. Your bullshit assumption and attempt to paint me as some monster notwithstanding, I don't see that some blind goal of reducing the number of them based on emotional appeal serves public policy better.

Facts seem to be on your side as majority of adult women who terminate a pregnancy do not experience mental health problems.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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17-12-2016, 08:25 AM
RE: Ohio 'heartbeat bill' - abortion
(17-12-2016 07:58 AM)morondog Wrote:  As it happens I have talked to and am friends with several. Your bullshit assumption and attempt to paint me as some monster notwithstanding [...]
And... what did they tell you? Consider

(17-12-2016 07:58 AM)morondog Wrote:  [...] I don't see that some blind goal of reducing the number of them based on emotional appeal serves public policy better.
It's neither blind nor based on emotional appeal, it's based on the statistical fact that abortions have a negative effect on the mental health of many (nobody made a claim about "most" or "the majority" @Szuchow) women.

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