Okay so this happened
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10-04-2015, 06:03 AM
RE: Okay so this happened
If you can substitute "assume" for believe", you are not talking about a religion. You are talking about arriving at a decision based on probabilities.

I assume the bridge will hold.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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10-04-2015, 06:12 AM
RE: Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 06:03 AM)Dom Wrote:  If you can substitute "assume" for believe", you are not talking about a religion. You are talking about arriving at a decision based on probabilities.

I assume the bridge will hold.

Well, what if I assume that Christ is the Son of God, and assume that I have to worship Him and that He has created the universe in seven days? Still no religion? To me it's not a matter of whether one uses belief or assumption, but about the contents of the belief and how they are decided.

Quantum Physics: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
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10-04-2015, 06:17 AM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2015 06:21 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Okay so this happened
Ah well, if you're still not convinced, I'll give it one more shot then I'll leave you all to throw darts at my avatar.

Say I have to give a present to the next person who comes through the door. I give them a blue present if they are male, and a pink one if they are female.

Someone says to me, "it's a male coming through next. You can ditch the pink present". That is a claim. Do I believe that claim? If I ask them for evidence and they provide none, I reject the claim. I don't believe the claim. Therefor, I'm still at the default stance of not knowing either way. By rejecting the claim, I have not assumed the contrary position that it will not be a male, which would lead me to throw away the blue present.

By assessing a claim of knoweldge, I'm not forced to make a decision of whether the claim is true or false. If I was, I'd be required to throw one of my presents away. I'm deciding whether to accept this claim and move to a new position, that being believing a male is the next one coming through. But by rejecting it, I stay in the "not knowing" position. I retain both presents; I don't believe the claim it will be a male, or the claim it will be a female. I am still equally prepared for both outcomes.

In the same way, a pure agnostic is holding a god and a no God present at the same time. They will not act as if they believe there is no God, but they won't act like they believe there is either. Of course, I'd expect most atheists would move much further towards belief in no God, but to say it's blanket true is to uphold the theist strawman and thus put a burden of proof on all atheists whether they require one or not.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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10-04-2015, 06:20 AM
RE: Okay so this happened
Ok rob can you say again what's the difference between what you outline there, and being an agnostic? Why would I want to call this position of refusing to decide "Atheism"?

Quantum Physics: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
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10-04-2015, 06:27 AM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2015 06:44 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Okay so this happened
Every atheist is agnostic, except those that choose to make a claim of knoweldge. Just "agnostic" isn't a position. An agnostic atheist could be perhaps anywhere between 50% and 99.99% sure there is no God. But anywhere on that scale, you have not accepted the claim there is a god. You are only a theist if you believe the claim is true. If your reply is "I don't know" then clearly you don't accept the claim, and you're not answering the question.

I'm obviously not explaining myself very well today, apologies.

You're a theist if you operate with the active belief in a god. Anything less than that, you're an atheist. But like my above example, I can lack the active belief the next person will be male without believing it won't be a male.

Really though, as long as you both agree what terms mean, it doesn't matter too much.

Apologies Judi for spilling my filth all over your topic, I shall shut the fuck up and go beat myself mercilessly now.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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10-04-2015, 06:32 AM
RE: Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 05:48 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  But then again, I think I would mess with them, tell them you made this deity tester and no god, after praying to it, has turned the little cardboard disk on my tester 90 degrees like I requested in my test prayer.

[Image: Deitytester20_zps000c1cdc.jpg]

Then I'd explain the lack of any evidence has caused me to conclude that there are no gods and I'd be glad to test his god(s) to disprove that one as well.

If he comes up with some excuse (And he will!) why that wouldn't work, then it's time to tell him to STFU until his god moves the little cardboard disk.

Dude, let the deity tester go. Ya got a lot of mileage out of it, but it's time to retire that photo. Smartass

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
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10-04-2015, 06:58 AM
RE: Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 05:38 AM)Alex K Wrote:  To the OP: it's not very useful to equate belief with religion, that's why we have two separate words. If I turn the know on my stove when I want to boil water, it's because I believe that this action will let the stove heat up. Is this now a religion? No, of course not, that's complete nonsense.

To normal people, no that wouldn't be religion. But apparently to my other half, it would me. I know... I live with him, therefore I pay the price. Someone has to do the thinking for BOTH of us. Glad it's not him.

Le sigh.
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10-04-2015, 07:01 AM
RE: Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 05:39 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I'd say you won that round, I don't know if you want to continue a dialog with this person, but you could ask how a lack of belief in gods requires faith.

It seems they're wanting to consider all beliefs bullshit, I can pretty much agree with that, but they lack clarity about what an atheist is. Perhaps he doesn't like the idea that he can't call your lack of belief bullshit like all of these other religions.

Why would this nonsense cause a shitstorm? This is the same shit we hear every day on this forum. Drinking Beverage

Because he's not on these forums to see what goes on here. I've tried to tell him in the past that I don't have a belief in any religion. I don't know why he picked today of all days to un-learn what I've told him before. He plays stupid a lot. I mean a lot. He's smart and he knows it and I've told him that when he "acts" dumb or plays the role of a truly ignorant (uneducated) person, it's a real turn-off. I told him that if he's trying to impress me.. it's doing quite the opposite.
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10-04-2015, 07:04 AM
RE: Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 03:29 AM)Judi Lynn Wrote:  My husband, out of the blue and at 4am, had the following conversation with me:

Him: Atheists have a religion.
Me: Wait... what?
Him: Atheists have a religion.
Me. No we don't. How do you figure?
Him: Because you believe in something.
Me scratching my head: But in order to be religious, some sort of god has to be involved.
Him: Not necessarily. You believe that nothing exists, therefore, you believe in something, which makes it a religion.
Me: Okay that's stupid. I believe our cat Lece' has three colors. Some might argue she has four colors. That doesn't make my belief a religion.
Him: People have worshiped cats.
Me: What the hell does that have to do with Lece' having three colors?
Him: Because she's a cat.
Me: That makes no sense. Seriously. Where do you get this stuff?
Him: All I'm saying is that because you believe in something, then you have a religion.
Me: Allow me to enlighten you since obviously you haven't had enough coffee yet. For starters, speaking only for myself, I do not believe in the existence of a god, of any god. That has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Lece' or the colors of her fur or worshiping of cats. Your thinking is wrong. Secondly, what is your definition of religion?
Him: My definition of religion? It's all bullshit.
Me: But you're Wiccan. Are you saying that your religion is bullshit?
Him: Yes.
Me: Why is that?
Him: Because it is.
Me: Oh for fucks sake. That is not an answer. If you feel that way about your own religion, then you might as well be atheist.
Him: But that's still having a religion.
Me: Back to this are we? No it's not. Atheists don't subscribe to any idea of any god. In order to be religious, typically, you'd believe there was a god, a deity of some sort.
Him: Not necessarily.
Me: How do you figure?
Him: Religion is believing in something.
Me: Oh it goes waaaay deeper than that dear. A god is involved in that thought process. I'm going to post this to my atheist forum and see what they think since this is utterly ridiculous.
Him: Let me know what sort of shit storm I start.

We then leave so I can take him to work. I just got back. During the drive to his job, he says to me:

So now I assume you're going to throw this in my face every chance you get?
Me: Uh no. Why would I do that?
Him: Because I know you will.
Me: Are you intentionally trying to piss me off by accusing me of something you think I might do in the future?
Him: No.
Me: Well, that's not very convincing. Already, you've assumed that I'm going to do that and yet all we were doing was having a discussion on the absurdity of your claim. I was trying to teach you that your view of atheism is incorrect, because well, it is. How do you figure that I'm going to continually use this against you?
Him: Shrugs his shoulders and gives no answer.
Me: Well, if I wanted to throw something in your face, it would be, for example, if I loaned you $300 two years ago and you haven't paid me and every time I see you, I mention how I did this great thing for you by lending you the money that I have yet to see back. THAT is throwing something in your face. Having a discussion on what atheism actually is, is NOT. Do you get it?
Him: Whatever. I'm done with this and don't want to talk about it anymore.
Me laughing: That's the sort of typical theist response I expect. You're proven wrong so you are done talking about it.
Him: No. You just always have the need to be right all the time.
Me: I didn't make the absurd claim that atheists have a religion. You did. But okay. We're done talking about it.

Whew. I'm tired from all that.

Why are you still married to this guy? Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-04-2015, 07:04 AM
RE: Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 05:48 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  But then again, I think I would mess with them, tell them you made this deity tester and no god, after praying to it, has turned the little cardboard disk on my tester 90 degrees like I requested in my test prayer.

I totally loved the Deity Tester 1.0 and the explanation that came with it. I just might have to make myself one, with your permission, of course. What an awesome way to get people to hush.
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