Okay so this happened
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10-04-2015, 07:20 AM
RE: Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 07:04 AM)Chas Wrote:  Why are you still married to this guy? Consider

There is much more to our relationship than this one conversation. If I were to leave him over this... it would make me look pretty shallow and selfish.

He's a good guy, I just find deep conversation with him elusive. He busts his ass working close to 60 hours a week while I stay at home. He doesn't bitch or complain when the house looks a little too lived in. He carries in ALL the groceries from the car (we buy for six people). He helps do dishes and laundry. Brings the laundry up from the basement to the second floor of the house because I have asthma. Listens to me bitch about stuff - I bitch a lot apparently. We don't have yelling matches. In two years, we have yelled at each other like twice. We have the same tastes in movies and tv shows. We are both geeky although I have about 4000 more MTG cards than he does. In two weeks, I'm going on vacation - by myself - to Florida and he's okay with it. I need a break and he knows it. So generally, he's an all around good guy, he just plays dumb every so often or comes up with these conversations that make me shake my head. And he's fun to get stoned with.
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10-04-2015, 08:05 AM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2015 03:11 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 03:29 AM)Judi Lynn Wrote:  My husband, out of the blue and at 4am, had the following conversation with me:

Him: Atheists have a religion.
Me: Wait... what?
Him: Atheists have a religion.
Me. No we don't. How do you figure?
Him: Because you believe in something.
Me scratching my head: But in order to be religious, some sort of god has to be involved.
Him: Not necessarily. You believe that nothing exists, therefore, you believe in something, which makes it a religion.
Me: Okay that's stupid. I believe our cat Lece' has three colors. Some might argue she has four colors. That doesn't make my belief a religion.
Him: People have worshiped cats.
Me: What the hell does that have to do with Lece' having three colors?
Him: Because she's a cat.
Me: That makes no sense. Seriously. Where do you get this stuff?
Him: All I'm saying is that because you believe in something, then you have a religion.
Me: Allow me to enlighten you since obviously you haven't had enough coffee yet. For starters, speaking only for myself, I do not believe in the existence of a god, of any god. That has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Lece' or the colors of her fur or worshiping of cats. Your thinking is wrong. Secondly, what is your definition of religion?
Him: My definition of religion? It's all bullshit.
Me: But you're Wiccan. Are you saying that your religion is bullshit?
Him: Yes.
Me: Why is that?
Him: Because it is.
Me: Oh for fucks sake. That is not an answer. If you feel that way about your own religion, then you might as well be atheist.
Him: But that's still having a religion.
Me: Back to this are we? No it's not. Atheists don't subscribe to any idea of any god. In order to be religious, typically, you'd believe there was a god, a deity of some sort.
Him: Not necessarily.
Me: How do you figure?
Him: Religion is believing in something.
Me: Oh it goes waaaay deeper than that dear. A god is involved in that thought process. I'm going to post this to my atheist forum and see what they think since this is utterly ridiculous.
Him: Let me know what sort of shit storm I start.

We then leave so I can take him to work. I just got back. During the drive to his job, he says to me:

So now I assume you're going to throw this in my face every chance you get?
Me: Uh no. Why would I do that?
Him: Because I know you will.
Me: Are you intentionally trying to piss me off by accusing me of something you think I might do in the future?
Him: No.
Me: Well, that's not very convincing. Already, you've assumed that I'm going to do that and yet all we were doing was having a discussion on the absurdity of your claim. I was trying to teach you that your view of atheism is incorrect, because well, it is. How do you figure that I'm going to continually use this against you?
Him: Shrugs his shoulders and gives no answer.
Me: Well, if I wanted to throw something in your face, it would be, for example, if I loaned you $300 two years ago and you haven't paid me and every time I see you, I mention how I did this great thing for you by lending you the money that I have yet to see back. THAT is throwing something in your face. Having a discussion on what atheism actually is, is NOT. Do you get it?
Him: Whatever. I'm done with this and don't want to talk about it anymore.
Me laughing: That's the sort of typical theist response I expect. You're proven wrong so you are done talking about it.
Him: No. You just always have the need to be right all the time.
Me: I didn't make the absurd claim that atheists have a religion. You did. But okay. We're done talking about it.

Whew. I'm tired from all that.

hehe I have always loved that perspective.."You have beliefs, thus atheism is your religion". As you are well aware of, Atheism does not fit the tenets of religion, it is actually the opposite, a lack of faith, a lack of belief. These are the lower tier theists posits that I live for, eviscerating those are beyond child's play, they are moronic in nature and short sightedness. It is not the same thing, apples and oranges.

As I have pointed out many times previously: Religions have organized behaviors, clergy, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, holy places, and scriptures. The practice of a religion may include rituals, sermons, commemoration or veneration (of a deity, gods or goddesses), sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trance, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, prayer, music, art, dance, public service or other aspects of human culture. Religions may also contain mythology. (thanks google)....with the exception of public service, Atheism has none of those...well yes we may dance, and even enjoy art...but we don't have an ATHIEST dance, or ATHEIST art....I point this out because that has been thrown at me before...the ignorance level of people hurts sometimes Laugh out load

Religion requires faith.

Faith is the belief in something without evidence

Delusion is the firm belief in something even in the face of superior evidence to the contrary.

Delusion = religion.

For one to believe in observable, testable and verifiable evidence does not require faith or belief, it requires the ability to comprehend the data, analyze it, and accept it if it is valid and provable. Evolution for example, does not require faith or belief, neither does gravity, they require a basic comprehension level. Big Grin

Next he will be asserting that believing your mom loves you is no different then believing god loves you, both are intangible things, but real. Rolleyes

oh am I thankful my wife is as militant atheist as I am. I can imagine the conversations you have at home Weeping

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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10-04-2015, 08:06 AM
RE: Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 08:05 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  oh am I thankful my wife is as militant atheist as I am.

Ditto. Sometimes, I even get mean looks when I'm too lenient.

Quantum Physics: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
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10-04-2015, 08:18 AM
RE: Okay so this happened
He was mostly wrong. Although to be fair, religion doesn't require a god. But it certainly doesn't equate to the word belief. Which atheism at its core isn't even a belief. Unless you word it as, "the belief that the statement "a god exists" is not proven to be true."

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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10-04-2015, 08:22 AM
RE: Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 08:18 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  He was mostly wrong. Although to be fair, religion doesn't require a god. But it certainly doesn't equate to the word belief. Which atheism at its core isn't even a belief. Unless you word it as, "the belief that the statement "a god exists" is not proven to be true."

Now you start sounding like Rob! Smile

Quantum Physics: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
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10-04-2015, 08:37 AM
RE: Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 05:41 AM)Alex K Wrote:  
(10-04-2015 05:40 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  No, it's not a belief. It's a rejection of the claim "there is at least one God". To say you believe there is to accept the opposite claim. They aren't the same thing.

When you choose to not pray to god to spare you eternal hellfire, whether you like it or not it's a decision based on your belief that there is no such place. No? Somehow you mean something much stronger by belief than I do, almost like absolute certainty.

I had an unusual childhood, lived in a cabin in the mountains without any concept of god, church, prayer and all the other religious crap. There wasn't anything there to not believe in.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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10-04-2015, 08:43 AM
RE: Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 07:04 AM)Judi Lynn Wrote:  
(10-04-2015 05:48 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  But then again, I think I would mess with them, tell them you made this deity tester and no god, after praying to it, has turned the little cardboard disk on my tester 90 degrees like I requested in my test prayer.

I totally loved the Deity Tester 1.0 and the explanation that came with it. I just might have to make myself one, with your permission, of course. What an awesome way to get people to hush.

It's a humorous way to make a point, by all means have fun with it. I was thinking Deity Tester 3.0 could simply be a Rubik's cube. God just has to solve it after praying to him to prove himself. Laughat

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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10-04-2015, 08:53 AM
RE: Okay so this happened
You could really make that one challenging and tell him he has to do it in 20 moves or less.
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10-04-2015, 10:35 AM
RE: Okay so this happened
It seems to me that people who do not believe in god are missing what is perhaps the most important component to religion, the supernatural. Even godless religions such as Buddhism contain supernatural beliefs such as reincarnation. I am inclined to agree with those who say that the term "Atheism" is ridiculous and should be unnecessary. We have been practically forced to give a positive label to a term of negation, just for the sake of a differentiation from the mainstream. We clearly need a simplified way to express our dissent, yet clearly our current term is providing a constant stream of misunderstandings and misconceptions.

Sam Harris gives a worthwhile lecture called "The Problem with Atheism" where he outlines some strategic reasons for abandoning the term altogether. I am not yet sure if I agree with him, but I can recognize that he makes excellent points.

Most of the Theists I talk with, or debate, think they have a knock down argument against "Atheism". The vast majority of them are basing these arguments off of a basic misunderstanding of what that term means. I think I agree with Harris on this, that these misconceptions give rise to the most consistent bad arguments that we all hear, such as "I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist" or "Atheism is just another religion."

I am simply baffled by the kind of thinking your husband is engaged in. He seems to be making literally no distinction between holding any belief, and holding a religious one. If that is the case, I don't see the value in using the term "religious" to begin with, because it has become a mere synonym for "belief of any kind". If I announce myself as an Atheist and someone tells me that I still have beliefs in general about some things, they would be right. and also stating the obvious. The "Atheism" part is supposed to tell them what kinds of beliefs I don't indulge in, not that I exclude myself from all beliefs altogether.

Even if they get the definitions correct, which seems rare, I find myself wondering how much of arguments have to do with psychological projection. Many believers I encounter make the mistake of assuming that everyone in the world thinks in the same manner as them, and therefore could not possibly operate successfully without baseless dogma of one kind or another. Some of them seem so insecure about their beliefs that they feel the strong emotional need to justify their thinking by projecting it onto everyone else. They seem to think that if enough people think like they do, they are somehow justified.

These experiences lead me to two preliminary conclusions. One, that much of these arguments hinge on definitions, and two, that pure intellect alone is not enough to fully engage this subject matter. Emotional needs need some serious attention if we are going to get anywhere.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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10-04-2015, 10:37 AM
RE: Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 03:29 AM)Judi Lynn Wrote:  My husband, out of the blue and at 4am, had the following conversation with me:

Him: Atheists have a religion.
Me: Wait... what?
Him: Atheists have a religion.
Me. No we don't. How do you figure?
Him: Because you believe in something.

my husband tried to argue with me once atheism is an unorganized religîon because it has charities.

I told him he was stretching the meaning of the word "religion".

But when my husband says that I'll throw something into his face later it's because he realized the flaw in his logic and he knows that I can't help to remind him of it later.

Because after 26 years he's hardly ever been wrong about anything. Dodgy


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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