Okay so this happened
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10-04-2015, 06:35 PM
RE: Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 03:29 AM)Judi Lynn Wrote:  My husband, out of the blue and at 4am, had the following conversation with me:

Him: Atheists have a religion.
Me: Wait... what?
Him: Atheists have a religion.
Me. No we don't. How do you figure?
Him: Because you believe in something.
Me scratching my head: But in order to be religious, some sort of god has to be involved.
Him: Not necessarily. You believe that nothing exists, therefore, you believe in something, which makes it a religion.
Me: Okay that's stupid. I believe our cat Lece' has three colors. Some might argue she has four colors. That doesn't make my belief a religion.
Him: People have worshiped cats.
Me: What the hell does that have to do with Lece' having three colors?
Him: Because she's a cat.
Me: That makes no sense. Seriously. Where do you get this stuff?
Him: All I'm saying is that because you believe in something, then you have a religion.
Me: Allow me to enlighten you since obviously you haven't had enough coffee yet. For starters, speaking only for myself, I do not believe in the existence of a god, of any god. That has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Lece' or the colors of her fur or worshiping of cats. Your thinking is wrong. Secondly, what is your definition of religion?
Him: My definition of religion? It's all bullshit.
Me: But you're Wiccan. Are you saying that your religion is bullshit?
Him: Yes.
Me: Why is that?
Him: Because it is.
Me: Oh for fucks sake. That is not an answer. If you feel that way about your own religion, then you might as well be atheist.
Him: But that's still having a religion.
Me: Back to this are we? No it's not. Atheists don't subscribe to any idea of any god. In order to be religious, typically, you'd believe there was a god, a deity of some sort.
Him: Not necessarily.
Me: How do you figure?
Him: Religion is believing in something.
Me: Oh it goes waaaay deeper than that dear. A god is involved in that thought process. I'm going to post this to my atheist forum and see what they think since this is utterly ridiculous.
Him: Let me know what sort of shit storm I start.

We then leave so I can take him to work. I just got back. During the drive to his job, he says to me:

So now I assume you're going to throw this in my face every chance you get?
Me: Uh no. Why would I do that?
Him: Because I know you will.
Me: Are you intentionally trying to piss me off by accusing me of something you think I might do in the future?
Him: No.
Me: Well, that's not very convincing. Already, you've assumed that I'm going to do that and yet all we were doing was having a discussion on the absurdity of your claim. I was trying to teach you that your view of atheism is incorrect, because well, it is. How do you figure that I'm going to continually use this against you?
Him: Shrugs his shoulders and gives no answer.
Me: Well, if I wanted to throw something in your face, it would be, for example, if I loaned you $300 two years ago and you haven't paid me and every time I see you, I mention how I did this great thing for you by lending you the money that I have yet to see back. THAT is throwing something in your face. Having a discussion on what atheism actually is, is NOT. Do you get it?
Him: Whatever. I'm done with this and don't want to talk about it anymore.
Me laughing: That's the sort of typical theist response I expect. You're proven wrong so you are done talking about it.
Him: No. You just always have the need to be right all the time.
Me: I didn't make the absurd claim that atheists have a religion. You did. But okay. We're done talking about it.

Whew. I'm tired from all that.

Actually you are both wrong and both right.
1.Neither atheism nor theism have anything to do with religion.
There are both religious atheists (*gasp) and religious theists (doh!).

2. Every body believes in something. What is important is WHY someone believes.
If sufficient empirical evidence exists, it might be that belief is warranted.
If no empirical evidence exists, and you still believe anyway, then you have faith.
Faith is the worst thing on the planet. Faith is gullibility.
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11-04-2015, 03:20 PM (This post was last modified: 11-04-2015 09:56 PM by smileXsmileXsmile.)
Okay so this happened
If atheism is considered a religion then "not stamp collecting" is considered a hobby


Don't sweat it too much. I feel ya on getting frustrated, but stay calm. They just don't know. That's all. Easier said than done, i understand. I run into this type of situation when people start saying marijuana should stay illegal. I find it productive to first listen to their unique thoughts so you understand where they're coming from. Everyone has their unique angle. Once you get a good foundation, then respectfully correct em with facts, statistics, paradoxes, fallacies, logic, etc. People shut down when situations get hostile, as you've just seen (And I've seen the same thing as well)
...careful when talking about WHY they believe what they do, it's easier to talk about WHAT they believe and point out the problems from that angle. The "WHY" questions are a problem because what is irrational to u is not irrational to them... which gets awkward when they know you think they're nuts. Stick with talking about WHAT they believe and point out the problems from that angle (wouldn't a global salt water flood extinct fresh water fish, if god created the universe who created god, if gods plan is predestined how can prayer work, etc)
Smile good luck bud

"If you cannot explain it simply, you don't understand it enough" -Albert Einstein
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11-04-2015, 04:00 PM (This post was last modified: 11-04-2015 04:12 PM by smileXsmileXsmile.)
Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 05:38 AM)Rob Wrote:  Atheism isn't even a belief, it's a lack of a belief.
(10-04-2015 05:38 AM)Alex K Wrote:  I don't know, Rob, I think I know what you mean but I don't entirely agree with you, there.

Alex, from that convo, I thought u might appreciate this chart. Someone from here gave it to me

[Image: 8bf7d385fb09e8023987af48bcd02236.jpg]

"If you cannot explain it simply, you don't understand it enough" -Albert Einstein
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11-04-2015, 05:43 PM
RE: Okay so this happened
Quote:My husband, out of the blue and at 4am, had the following conversation with me:

Why did you marry that shithead?

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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11-04-2015, 06:09 PM
RE: Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 07:04 AM)Chas Wrote:  Why are you still married to this guy? Consider

Keep it in your pants, old man. Tongue

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11-04-2015, 06:13 PM
RE: Okay so this happened
I really think I'm switching to more gnostic atheist approach.

Dodgy


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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11-04-2015, 06:30 PM
RE: Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 05:20 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(10-04-2015 05:39 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I'd say you won that round, I don't know if you want to continue a dialog with this person, but you could ask how a lack of belief in gods requires faith.

Aye, there's the rub. I think that what is responsible for the bulk of confusion with these types of arguments is that "belief" and "faith" are being conflated. They are not the same. "Belief" is more or less an expectation of an outcome based on some sort of evidence or past experience. "Faith" is an expectation of an outcome absent of any evidence. (Or in some cases despite evidence to the contrary.) As such, "faith" stipulates that no proof is possible within its context. Not much left to talk about then.

^^THAT^^ Thumbsup

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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11-04-2015, 07:38 PM
RE: Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 05:52 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I'm saying that to be an atheist does not require you to believe there is no God. You can think it is 50/50. You're not convinced it is true or false.
No, not BELIEVING is the very definition of atheism. And there is no 50/50 belief. You believe or you do not.

What there is 50/50 of is certainty / knowledge and that's a separate (though related) issue. It is possible (though unlikely) that you could think a god 50% likely and still not believe in that god. More likely you would in that situation hedge your bets, but that would mean that, however tentatively, you BELIEVE and are not therefore an atheist. You would be an agnostic THEIST.

I believe there's a small, very sub-1% chance that a deity could exist someplace but see no reason to afford BELIEF to any deity. Which makes me an agnostic ATHEIST.
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12-04-2015, 05:19 AM
RE: Okay so this happened
(10-04-2015 03:29 AM)Judi Lynn Wrote:  My husband, out of the blue and at 4am, had the following conversation with me:

Him: Atheists have a religion.
Me: Wait... what?
Him: Atheists have a religion.
Me. No we don't. How do you figure?
Him: Because you believe in something.
Me scratching my head: But in order to be religious, some sort of god has to be involved.
Him: Not necessarily. You believe that nothing exists, therefore, you believe in something, which makes it a religion.
Me: Okay that's stupid. I believe our cat Lece' has three colors. Some might argue she has four colors. That doesn't make my belief a religion.
Him: People have worshiped cats.
Me: What the hell does that have to do with Lece' having three colors?
Him: Because she's a cat.
Me: That makes no sense. Seriously. Where do you get this stuff?
Him: All I'm saying is that because you believe in something, then you have a religion.
Me: Allow me to enlighten you since obviously you haven't had enough coffee yet. For starters, speaking only for myself, I do not believe in the existence of a god, of any god. That has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Lece' or the colors of her fur or worshiping of cats. Your thinking is wrong. Secondly, what is your definition of religion?
Him: My definition of religion? It's all bullshit.
Me: But you're Wiccan. Are you saying that your religion is bullshit?
Him: Yes.
Me: Why is that?
Him: Because it is.
Me: Oh for fucks sake. That is not an answer. If you feel that way about your own religion, then you might as well be atheist.
Him: But that's still having a religion.
Me: Back to this are we? No it's not. Atheists don't subscribe to any idea of any god. In order to be religious, typically, you'd believe there was a god, a deity of some sort.
Him: Not necessarily.
Me: How do you figure?
Him: Religion is believing in something.
Me: Oh it goes waaaay deeper than that dear. A god is involved in that thought process. I'm going to post this to my atheist forum and see what they think since this is utterly ridiculous.
Him: Let me know what sort of shit storm I start.

We then leave so I can take him to work. I just got back. During the drive to his job, he says to me:

So now I assume you're going to throw this in my face every chance you get?
Me: Uh no. Why would I do that?
Him: Because I know you will.
Me: Are you intentionally trying to piss me off by accusing me of something you think I might do in the future?
Him: No.
Me: Well, that's not very convincing. Already, you've assumed that I'm going to do that and yet all we were doing was having a discussion on the absurdity of your claim. I was trying to teach you that your view of atheism is incorrect, because well, it is. How do you figure that I'm going to continually use this against you?
Him: Shrugs his shoulders and gives no answer.
Me: Well, if I wanted to throw something in your face, it would be, for example, if I loaned you $300 two years ago and you haven't paid me and every time I see you, I mention how I did this great thing for you by lending you the money that I have yet to see back. THAT is throwing something in your face. Having a discussion on what atheism actually is, is NOT. Do you get it?
Him: Whatever. I'm done with this and don't want to talk about it anymore.
Me laughing: That's the sort of typical theist response I expect. You're proven wrong so you are done talking about it.
Him: No. You just always have the need to be right all the time.
Me: I didn't make the absurd claim that atheists have a religion. You did. But okay. We're done talking about it.

Whew. I'm tired from all that.

Are we married to the same person Consider

My husband says atheism is a religion all the time. I've tried every single way of explaining it as I can.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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12-04-2015, 05:33 AM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2015 05:46 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Okay so this happened
(11-04-2015 07:38 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(10-04-2015 05:52 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I'm saying that to be an atheist does not require you to believe there is no God. You can think it is 50/50. You're not convinced it is true or false.
No, not BELIEVING is the very definition of atheism. And there is no 50/50 belief. You believe or you do not.

What there is 50/50 of is certainty / knowledge and that's a separate (though related) issue. It is possible (though unlikely) that you could think a god 50% likely and still not believe in that god. More likely you would in that situation hedge your bets, but that would mean that, however tentatively, you BELIEVE and are not therefore an atheist. You would be an agnostic THEIST.

I believe there's a small, very sub-1% chance that a deity could exist someplace but see no reason to afford BELIEF to any deity. Which makes me an agnostic ATHEIST.

I don't know what you're getting worked up about, I think you have misread what I am saying. I didn't say there was 50/50 belief, I said you may have come to the conclusion that it's 50% likely. In that case, you would probably be an atheist since you lack conviction that the god claim is true. You may profess belief, or even convince yourself to believe anyhow, in which case you'd be a theist, sure.

My point was, you don't have to believe that there is no god to be an atheist, only to lack belief in the god claim. Those two things are not the same.

I'm not saying this is every atheist, I'm saying it's the bare minimum. Sure, probably most atheists would make the stronger claim. But the "I'm just an agnostic" types clearly would not make their own claim of belief. Rejecting a claim does not mean claiming you believe the opposite to be true.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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