Old English/Anglo-Saxon
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16-02-2015, 12:06 PM
Old English/Anglo-Saxon
Recently I have taken an interest in the Anglo-Saxons, and I have started learning their language. I'm doing pretty well, I'm starting to get the noun cases down, and I have noticed that many of the intricacies and beauty of Old English have been lost. Modern English has few little inflection and has lost grammatical gender.

Anyway I thought I would leave this here in case anyone is interested in discussing this.

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16-02-2015, 12:24 PM
RE: Old English/Anglo-Saxon
(16-02-2015 12:06 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  Recently I have taken an interest in the Anglo-Saxons, and I have started learning their language. I'm doing pretty well, I'm starting to get the noun cases down, and I have noticed that many of the intricacies and beauty of Old English have been lost. Modern English has few little inflection and has lost grammatical gender.

Anyway I thought I would leave this here in case anyone is interested in discussing this.

Those are good things.

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17-02-2015, 08:22 AM
RE: Old English/Anglo-Saxon
Old Germanic had many of those things and they were lost to many of it's offshoot languages as well. Also, the Proto Indo-European tongue has had many variations and intricacies lost to time as well.

Inflections are even less in the Anglo-Saxon era as it was in the Indo-European manner. We lost some communal ideas of words that could go both ways. Such as give/take being the same word. Most of these ideas some could see as beautiful in language, also lead to lots of confusion in language. It's why some languages lessen the use of inflections or alter the constant sounds of stops in certain areas due to how one makes the mouth shift.

These are ideas valuable to catalog or remember. To hold to any concept of "esteem" is an excessive degree. I'm all for saying people should look up for it. Look into the studies of Jacob Grimm of the Grimm brothers as he helped to begin these quality linguistic studies. There is no logical in idealizing them as better though, they simply aren't and it's purely a personal judgement if you thought so. Any value an aspect may or may not have is equal to many negatives they have.

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17-02-2015, 10:29 AM
RE: Old English/Anglo-Saxon
(16-02-2015 12:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-02-2015 12:06 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  Recently I have taken an interest in the Anglo-Saxons, and I have started learning their language. I'm doing pretty well, I'm starting to get the noun cases down, and I have noticed that many of the intricacies and beauty of Old English have been lost. Modern English has few little inflection and has lost grammatical gender.

Anyway I thought I would leave this here in case anyone is interested in discussing this.

Those are good things.

That's subjective and it depends. If all languages were like that, it would get boring soon.

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17-02-2015, 11:16 AM
RE: Old English/Anglo-Saxon
(17-02-2015 10:29 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  
(16-02-2015 12:24 PM)Chas Wrote:  Those are good things.

That's subjective and it depends. If all languages were like that, it would get boring soon.

Grammatical gender is pointless. I'll take bored.

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17-02-2015, 12:01 PM
RE: Old English/Anglo-Saxon
(17-02-2015 11:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-02-2015 10:29 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  That's subjective and it depends. If all languages were like that, it would get boring soon.

Grammatical gender is pointless. I'll take bored.

If everything that is pointless in a language became obsolete, the language would become less and less complicated, thus less meaningful.

Complexity in a language helps with diversity and memorization in spelling. Plus, complexity carries meaning and meaning carries history and culture. This is certainly true for Greek but I'm not sure about English so I can't specifically talk about that.

Why shouldn't we try to educate people more instead of simplifying and mangling languages?

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17-02-2015, 12:17 PM
RE: Old English/Anglo-Saxon
(17-02-2015 12:01 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(17-02-2015 11:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  Grammatical gender is pointless. I'll take bored.

If everything that is pointless in a language became obsolete, the language would become less and less complicated, thus less meaningful.

Complexity in a language helps with diversity and memorization in spelling. Plus, complexity carries meaning and meaning carries history and culture. This is certainly true for Greek but I'm not sure about English so I can't specifically talk about that.

Why shouldn't we try to educate people more instead of simplifying and mangling languages?

Language's drive is to make communication clear and intellectually stimulating. But really gender distinction doesn't have much of a benefitial merit in those ideas. Now Language does shift the way we think and some say the ideas of identifying personalities to items arises from that. If there is a purpose to that or not I wouldn't know. But things like inflections and tougher constant sounds require more mouth movements and cause more issues for clearer communication when ears and mouths aren't well intuned.

Language is always evolving and shifting, not always in "simpler" ways. Dropping of some things happen because of simplicity but new trends and shifts of style occur in ways that don't always led to simplicity. Complexity does drive up, it's a matter of doing so naturally across societies and in what ways. Some people fear the global or national media outlets were likely making regional language unique qualities melting together, but surprisingly even in the new generations there are more signs the differences are actually growing slightly. That's enjoyable for those who like the unique differences of accents and views of communication.

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17-02-2015, 12:43 PM
RE: Old English/Anglo-Saxon
(17-02-2015 12:17 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Language's drive is to make communication clear and intellectually stimulating. But really gender distinction doesn't have much of a benefitial merit in those ideas. Now Language does shift the way we think and some say the ideas of identifying personalities to items arises from that. If there is a purpose to that or not I wouldn't know. But things like inflections and tougher constant sounds require more mouth movements and cause more issues for clearer communication when ears and mouths aren't well intuned.

Language is always evolving and shifting, not always in "simpler" ways. Dropping of some things happen because of simplicity but new trends and shifts of style occur in ways that don't always led to simplicity. Complexity does drive up, it's a matter of doing so naturally across societies and in what ways. Some people fear the global or national media outlets were likely making regional language unique qualities melting together, but surprisingly even in the new generations there are more signs the differences are actually growing slightly. That's enjoyable for those who like the unique differences of accents and views of communication.

As I said, I'm not sure about Old English so I can't talk about it, but gender distinction is important in Greek. If you have six different ways to write the sound "eeh", you need some distinctions to help with spelling. The suffixes "assigned" to each word according to its gender help someone remember which of the six "eeh's" they have to use.

Now, you may say, why have six "eeh's"? Well, because then you have a lot of diversity and you don't have to resort to the stupid lack of rules that say, for example, that you have to pronounce the word "tear" in two different ways with two different meanings for no apparent reason.

When you preserve diversity and culture, you know exactly why a word is written the way it is written and you can learn how to spell more easily, without losing meaning.

Inflections do not necessarily require tougher consonant sounds. As for what is "easy" and "hard" to pronounce, that depends solely on the language you've learned growing up. To me, for example, English is the hardest language to pronounce in the whole world.

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17-02-2015, 12:53 PM
RE: Old English/Anglo-Saxon
As a language nerd filling a niche in the demand for multi lingual combat veterans, I'd rather the world stay both linguistically confusing and perpetually dangerous Evil_monster

The history of English is actually quite fascinating. I suggest a book called The Adventure of English by Melvyn Bragg. It's a good read if you have an interest in the evolution of the English language from its Germanic roots to its hybrid modern form, and boring as shit if you don't have an interest Tongue

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17-02-2015, 06:31 PM
RE: Old English/Anglo-Saxon
(17-02-2015 11:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-02-2015 10:29 AM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  That's subjective and it depends. If all languages were like that, it would get boring soon.

Grammatical gender is pointless. I'll take bored.

You don't have to like it, but you're speaking subjectively because you grew up with English.

For example, many words change meaning when the gender changes in Italian, and so do other languages. This already shows you that it's not pointless.

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